A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition
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20170203
A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition
Patch Download:
Kaizoalttp.ips
- Faq/Readme:
- A Link to the Past: Kaizo by ChristosOwen
--- What is A Link to the Past: Kaizo? ---
This is an extremely difficult mini-hack aimed at speedrunners. It's mostly the same as the original game, except it shuffles items around in order to create an interesting and unique path through the game. There are some romhacking elements too which will make you laugh (or cry).
--- How difficult are we talking? ---
It's very challenging from both a puzzle solving and execution perspective. It requires an in-depth knowledge of the game and its mechanics, as well as a high level of skill. Kaizo hacks are intentionally designed to feel unfair and to test your thinking, patience and skill -- this one is no exception.
--- Who is responsible for this travesty!? ---
I designed the overall concept and progression. I was lucky enough to have Superskuj, Karkat and Zarby help me with the numerous romhacking aspects. Huge thanks to you guys!
--- What's actually new then? ---
Everything that's possible/required in this hack is also possible in the original (Japanese 1.0) version of the game. However the opposite is NOT true: there are things which are possible in the original game which are NOT possible in this hack. A very simple example is that mini-helmasaurs can no longer be knocked back into pits in this hack, whereas in the original game you could do that.
Everything changed will be obvious to the player when playing.
--- What advanced knowledge do I need to know? ---
You'll need to know a few tricks and minor glitches, some exclusive to the Japanese 1.0 version. Specifically:
- Fake flippers
- Dungeon bunny revival
- Bomb jumps (some advanced ones, some not used in speedruns)
--- How long do you expect this to take? ---
Some of the top speedrunners who can beat the original in under 2 hours have taken 12+ hours to beat this. You may want to consider using savestates if you're really struggling.
--- Important Notes ---
NOTE 1: This was made before the "fake powder" glitch was discovered so it is not expected you use this glitch. That location still contains Half Magic since it was meant to be impossible to get it. Getting Half Magic really ruins the intended difficulty so I recommend not doing that!
NOTE 2: The map is permanently disabled. This was made before pendant/crystal randomization existed between dungeons so that had to be done manually. The result broke the map and I found disabling it to be the simpler solution at the time.
NOTE 3: While in the rain state please ensure you AVOID scrolling TOWARDS the "Link's House" and "Hyrule Castle" overworld screens from the surrounding screens. The rain-state guards are still present and you will get stuck in their hitboxes and softlock! This was an oversight and ideally these guys will be moved in a future version.
NOTE 4: You do NOT need to use any major glitches to complete this hack!
--- Good Luck & Have Fun! ---
The best way to play this is to throw out all assumptions you have about how the progression through the game will go. The next task required to progress will usually not be what you'd be required to do in the original!
--- Spoilery Notes ---
STOP READING NOW IF YOU DON'T WANT SPOILERS!!!
If you want a true blind experience you should stop reading now. Some things here may spoil the puzzles and surprises.
NOTE 1: This was made on a very old V7 version of the randomizer in early 2017. As such, some things will not be how you expect them to be if you're playing this in 2018 or thereafter. One notable difference is the Pyramid/Waterfall Fairies did not have chests in them yet. You can interact with them by walking up to them just like you ordinarily would in the original. New interactions with them may also be possible so bear that in mind!
NOTE 2: It is possible to softlock in the initial rain-state prologue if you run out of resources - this is intended design! Manage your resources extremely effectively or restarts may be required. This sequence is fairly short so it shouldn't be very frustrating. Once you beat the prologue you can never softlock yourself again (unless you use major glitches, etc).
- Some pot/enemy keys have been removed (note: removed, NOT moved elsewhere)
- No new pot/enemy keys have been added
- Enemy HP has been changed (mostly increased)
- No enemies are completely invincible
- Damage output from enemies has been changed (mostly increased)
- Enemy vulnerabilities have been changed (no NEW weapons work on enemies/bosses but some that used to work no longer do)
- Enemy prize packs have been changed (these are specifically chosen for each enemy group, most are now 100% drop rates)
- Some properties have been changed about most enemies (e.g. block projectiles from the front, cannot fall down pits, etc)
- Starting heart count has been reduced to 1
- Bomb capacity has (initially) been capped at 5 and arrow capacity has (initially) been capped at 10
- Multiple copies of some items exist
- It is not possible to finish with a full inventory
- Dark navigation is required (you will have an item available to help navigate before any dark rooms are necessary)
- Maps may be useful: http://ian-albert.com/games/legend_of_zelda_a_link_to_the_past_maps/
RAW Paste Data
A Link to the Past: Kaizo by ChristosOwen
--- What is A Link to the Past: Kaizo? ---
This is an extremely difficult mini-hack aimed at speedrunners. It's mostly the same as the original game, except it shuffles items around in order to create an interesting and unique path through the game. There are some romhacking elements too which will make you laugh (or cry).
--- How difficult are we talking? ---
It's very challenging from both a puzzle solving and execution perspective. It requires an in-depth knowledge of the game and its mechanics, as well as a high level of skill. Kaizo hacks are intentionally designed to feel unfair and to test your thinking, patience and skill -- this one is no exception.
--- Who is responsible for this travesty!? ---
I designed the overall concept and progression. I was lucky enough to have Superskuj, Karkat and Zarby help me with the numerous romhacking aspects. Huge thanks to you guys!
--- What's actually new then? ---
Everything that's possible/required in this hack is also possible in the original (Japanese 1.0) version of the game. However the opposite is NOT true: there are things which are possible in the original game which are NOT possible in this hack. A very simple example is that mini-helmasaurs can no longer be knocked back into pits in this hack, whereas in the original game you could do that.
Everything changed will be obvious to the player when playing.
--- What advanced knowledge do I need to know? ---
You'll need to know a few tricks and minor glitches, some exclusive to the Japanese 1.0 version. Specifically:
- Fake flippers
- Dungeon bunny revival
- Bomb jumps (some advanced ones, some not used in speedruns)
--- How long do you expect this to take? ---
Some of the top speedrunners who can beat the original in under 2 hours have taken 12+ hours to beat this. You may want to consider using savestates if you're really struggling.
--- Important Notes ---
NOTE 1: This was made before the "fake powder" glitch was discovered so it is not expected you use this glitch. That location still contains Half Magic since it was meant to be impossible to get it. Getting Half Magic really ruins the intended difficulty so I recommend not doing that!
NOTE 2: The map is permanently disabled. This was made before pendant/crystal randomization existed between dungeons so that had to be done manually. The result broke the map and I found disabling it to be the simpler solution at the time.
NOTE 3: While in the rain state please ensure you AVOID scrolling TOWARDS the "Link's House" and "Hyrule Castle" overworld screens from the surrounding screens. The rain-state guards are still present and you will get stuck in their hitboxes and softlock! This was an oversight and ideally these guys will be moved in a future version.
NOTE 4: You do NOT need to use any major glitches to complete this hack!
--- Good Luck & Have Fun! ---
The best way to play this is to throw out all assumptions you have about how the progression through the game will go. The next task required to progress will usually not be what you'd be required to do in the original!
--- Spoilery Notes ---
STOP READING NOW IF YOU DON'T WANT SPOILERS!!!
If you want a true blind experience you should stop reading now. Some things here may spoil the puzzles and surprises.
NOTE 1: This was made on a very old V7 version of the randomizer in early 2017. As such, some things will not be how you expect them to be if you're playing this in 2018 or thereafter. One notable difference is the Pyramid/Waterfall Fairies did not have chests in them yet. You can interact with them by walking up to them just like you ordinarily would in the original. New interactions with them may also be possible so bear that in mind!
NOTE 2: It is possible to softlock in the initial rain-state prologue if you run out of resources - this is intended design! Manage your resources extremely effectively or restarts may be required. This sequence is fairly short so it shouldn't be very frustrating. Once you beat the prologue you can never softlock yourself again (unless you use major glitches, etc).
- Some pot/enemy keys have been removed (note: removed, NOT moved elsewhere)
- No new pot/enemy keys have been added
- Enemy HP has been changed (mostly increased)
- No enemies are completely invincible
- Damage output from enemies has been changed (mostly increased)
- Enemy vulnerabilities have been changed (no NEW weapons work on enemies/bosses but some that used to work no longer do)
- Enemy prize packs have been changed (these are specifically chosen for each enemy group, most are now 100% drop rates)
- Some properties have been changed about most enemies (e.g. block projectiles from the front, cannot fall down pits, etc)
- Starting heart count has been reduced to 1
- Bomb capacity has (initially) been capped at 5 and arrow capacity has (initially) been capped at 10
- Multiple copies of some items exist
- It is not possible to finish with a full inventory
- Dark navigation is required (you will have an item available to help navigate before any dark rooms are necessary)
- Maps may be useful: http://ian-albert.com/games/legend_of_zelda_a_link_to_the_past_maps/
----------------------------------------
Hello folks!
This is a mini hack called ALTTP: Kaizo. Patch to an unheadered US version ROM.
For those unfamiliar with the term Kaizo, here's an excerpt from our Super Mario World Kaizo cousin:
Kaizo Mario World features extremely difficult level designs and deliberately breaks many normal rules of "accepted" level design, such as placing invisible blocks where the player is likely to jump, thus causing the player to die. This cruelty and the resulting frustration, as well as the skill level required, is the purpose of the hack. The Japanese word 'kaizō' has a literal meaning of "reorganize but in this context it indicates an extreme level of (unfair) difficulty.
This hack is the ALTTP version of this.
It's based on the randomizer concept, which keeps the main game layout the same (overworld/dungeons) but changes the contents of each item location (chests, heart pieces, boss drops, and more). By doing this I have created a unique progression order as well as some unique and challenging puzzles, all within the familiar original setting. There are numerous pieces of minor romhacking to mix things up, which will make you either laugh or cry.
I have provided a more detailed readme containing further information:
https://puu.sh/tOFbT/e3e4953e7e.txt
Lastly, let me emphasise that this is extremely difficult and challenging. It hasn't been made to be fair to the player. It was created with speedrunners in mind and is extremely likely to be frustrating and confusing to most people. Expect to get stuck and die a lot.
I'm sharing it here in case there are any other sadists amongst us. Feedback is welcome, but please bear in mind the aim of the hack before saying it's too hard (because that's the point)!
Last edited by ChristosOwen on Sat 4 Feb 2017 - 19:13; edited 1 time in total
ChristosOwen
- Since : 2016-06-12
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A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition :: Comments
Fri 3 Feb 2017 - 15:19 by Puzzledude
Nice. We definitely need a Kaizo in ALTTP, since Kaizo Super Mario World is legendary, although it is extremely difficult. Will give this a spin.
PS
It seems this actually rivals my upcoming Kaizo Worlds (edit of Parallel Worlds to extremely difficult). Still an idea only. It seems we might just have 2 Kaizos in the future for ALTTP.
PS
It seems this actually rivals my upcoming Kaizo Worlds (edit of Parallel Worlds to extremely difficult). Still an idea only. It seems we might just have 2 Kaizos in the future for ALTTP.
Sat 4 Feb 2017 - 15:11 by Somaria
Some reason I can't download it? Link just opens up a bunch of text.
Sat 4 Feb 2017 - 15:25 by assassin17
then right click the link and do "Save As" instead.
Sat 4 Feb 2017 - 19:11 by ChristosOwen
That can also be a browser issue (if you use firefox). Try opening it on IE or Chrome instead (works for me when I have that issue).
Sat 4 Feb 2017 - 22:45 by Somaria
ChristosOwen wrote:That can also be a browser issue (if you use firefox). Try opening it on IE or Chrome instead (works for me when I have that issue).
Was certainly the browser issue, as I am using FireFox. Worked when I went through Chrome. Much thanks.
Sun 5 Feb 2017 - 12:04 by Puzzledude
I have to say this game is an extreme chanllenge, and not just that. It is essentially an extreme randomizer in which you also need to exploit known glitches to be able to proceed - like the "fake flippers" glitch, bunny reset to Link glitch, uppon walmaster grabs you or after defeat (so you are Link without Moonpearl), bg2 glitch ie exploration glitch etc etc; which is why the Japan version was used for this, since we know the Japan version has these glitches, but the US doesn't. This definitely needs to be said as in the randomizer page you actually have the "casual" and "glitch exploit" randomizer versions. Nevertheless I am able to proceed, it is just pure expert speedrun glitch exploit quest.
Sun 5 Feb 2017 - 14:53 by ChristosOwen
Hi Puzzledude!
This is actually designed to be beaten without using "major glitches", which means no EG or wall clips. The readme says the "minor glitches" you need -- specifically fake flippers (very easy) and dungeon bunny revival (also very easy). No other glitches are required, just in-depth game knowledge and skill. Of course, tricks such as bomb jumps and navigating in the dark are assumed too.
Apart from one application each of fake flippers and bunny revival there are no other glitches required.
This is actually designed to be beaten without using "major glitches", which means no EG or wall clips. The readme says the "minor glitches" you need -- specifically fake flippers (very easy) and dungeon bunny revival (also very easy). No other glitches are required, just in-depth game knowledge and skill. Of course, tricks such as bomb jumps and navigating in the dark are assumed too.
Apart from one application each of fake flippers and bunny revival there are no other glitches required.
Sun 5 Feb 2017 - 17:19 by Puzzledude
Yes, I know now. I did not know the "fake flippers" before.ChristosOwen wrote:Hi Puzzledude!
This is actually designed to be beaten without using "major glitches", which means no EG or wall clips. The readme says the "minor glitches" you need -- specifically fake flippers (very easy) and dungeon bunny revival (also very easy). No other glitches are required, just in-depth game knowledge and skill. Of course, tricks such as bomb jumps and navigating in the dark are assumed too.
Apart from one application each of fake flippers and bunny revival there are no other glitches required.
I just finished the game today, but with cheats, glitch exploits etc etc, so I actually don't know what was legit gaming and what not.
I used the glitch to enter Turtle rock for instance, as well as "exploration glitch" (pushes Link to bg2) as there is no other way to unlock the big key door in Tower of Hera for instance and get the Ether medalion.
The cave with the sword-3 with all spikes also does not seem to be beatable, since you always die if legit (probably the only thing I actually had to cheat for). Since no Cape or Bryna (assuming not in the game at all, like Lamp and Bugnet).
Again the push to bg2 glitch seems necessary or some other glitch to enter Ganon's tower since the 7th crystal seems to be missing, I only could get 6.
Like said, at the end I lost concept of what is legit and what is cheat and glitch, so I actually have no idea how "legit" the play actually was. I though everything I did was planed and legit, since this is why the Japan version was obviosuly chosen, since we know J 1.0 and 1.1 had glitches possible.
Ganon also seems to be indestructable, so I used the exploration glitch to come to Triforce shrine, as I thought this was how it was planed to be played, same glitch was used to solve Tower of Hera and Ganon's tower.
All the crystal dungeons seemed normally beatable but only as extreme challenge.
I have to say I'm actually not a fan of such game design or gaming, as this is not just Kaizo, but also extreme randomizer with glitch exploits, which brings it to extreme speedrunning/randomizer type of the game.
The only unlegit move was probably getting the sword-3, but I assumed there is some way to get it, that I just couldn't find, like that bomb jump for the Moonpearl in the ice dungeon (if someone would for instance cheat for the Hookshot, he would actually not break anything). I could actually make that jump on 50 percent speed and multiple repetitions..... And of course on some very difficult dark rooms I also had to cheat for the Lamp (or solved with Lamp first and only then tryed it with no Lamp). Now I know how that guy felt with blindfolded run.
Sun 5 Feb 2017 - 17:26 by Puzzledude
Despite work being put into this, I unfortunately can not recomend the game. Seems like my Kaizo worlds is going to be much more bearable.
Note: this run was partially "unlegit", like said I lost grip of what is legit and what not, since at the end I could no longer see the difference between what was planed and what not.
But if you say the push to bg2 was not planed, then this was thus a semi legit run with using lots of cheats and unplaned glitch explits, and at some point the infinite health and green magic as well, since otherwise it didn't seem solvable (multiple deaths for instance). Still glad though to see the ending screen after all the frustration.
fake flippers on screen transit, was able to swim to Zora
using the water warp (again not sure if this was planed or not)
impossible bomb jump (I could jump this on 50 percent speed, as on this speed I could make the pixel perfect positioning of bomb and player)
interesting new ending credits on Japan version
made it to end with bg2 glitch exploit, after beating all dungeons, Ganon did not show any signs of being defeatable (don't know what the Sword of Bane is), unlegit solve thus, but still glad it is over, legit or unlegit.
Note: this run was partially "unlegit", like said I lost grip of what is legit and what not, since at the end I could no longer see the difference between what was planed and what not.
But if you say the push to bg2 was not planed, then this was thus a semi legit run with using lots of cheats and unplaned glitch explits, and at some point the infinite health and green magic as well, since otherwise it didn't seem solvable (multiple deaths for instance). Still glad though to see the ending screen after all the frustration.
fake flippers on screen transit, was able to swim to Zora
using the water warp (again not sure if this was planed or not)
impossible bomb jump (I could jump this on 50 percent speed, as on this speed I could make the pixel perfect positioning of bomb and player)
interesting new ending credits on Japan version
made it to end with bg2 glitch exploit, after beating all dungeons, Ganon did not show any signs of being defeatable (don't know what the Sword of Bane is), unlegit solve thus, but still glad it is over, legit or unlegit.
Mon 6 Feb 2017 - 10:09 by ChristosOwen
The opening message is "Only the sword of evil's bane can defeat Ganon", in other words the Master Sword. Unless you have specifically the Master Sword, Ganon has been changed to be undefeatable. Perhaps this is too cryptic though, but I figured most people would know the Sword of Evil's Bane refers to the Master Sword.
You get the Tempered Sword in Bryna Cave by using bombs to inflict 1/2 damage to yourself instead of 1 damage at the start and end (since you have Blue Mail) together with using the Hookshot to hook to the torches and boots to dash during the i-frames, and a potion to restore health. It's tight, but doable, with 6 hearts. It's the hardest part to execute/solve.
Once you have the sword, you can take Ganon to his 3rd phase (whose opening message is "You will never find my secret", to indicate something is hidden) and if you fall down, you will find a secret hole which takes you to Tower of Hera and thus you can get Ether and enter Turtle Rock normally.
This is where you get the 3rd pendant (the other 2 being in Ganon's Tower) and then get the Master Sword and can kill Ganon.
The 7 crystals are Desert Palace, Palace of Darkness, Swamp Palace, Skull Woods, Thieves' Town, Ice Palace and Misery Mire. I'm guessing you never defeated Lanmolas'? If not, you also missed out on Boots it would seem.
The ice bomb jump isn't pixel perfect and isn't so bad once you know how. It's fairly common knowledge within the speedrunning community. Again remember that this was aimed at speedrunners and not as a casual hack, I just shared it here because I'd already made it. So there are different levels of expected knowledge, I guess. I didn't expect (m)any people to like it here, but heyho.
Everything possible with fake flippers was planned, so yes I knew you could get to Zora's Domain with it. Nice to see you thought of that though!
The credits are part of the usual randomizer ROM, that's actually not something I did exclusively for this hack. But it's quite interesting to get stats of your playthrough, don't you think?
It was meant to be really difficult, frustrating and confusing so it seems I succeeded in what I had planned! Sorry you didn't like it though heh. Seems like I've got my revenge after playing through some of your earlier hacks!
You get the Tempered Sword in Bryna Cave by using bombs to inflict 1/2 damage to yourself instead of 1 damage at the start and end (since you have Blue Mail) together with using the Hookshot to hook to the torches and boots to dash during the i-frames, and a potion to restore health. It's tight, but doable, with 6 hearts. It's the hardest part to execute/solve.
Once you have the sword, you can take Ganon to his 3rd phase (whose opening message is "You will never find my secret", to indicate something is hidden) and if you fall down, you will find a secret hole which takes you to Tower of Hera and thus you can get Ether and enter Turtle Rock normally.
This is where you get the 3rd pendant (the other 2 being in Ganon's Tower) and then get the Master Sword and can kill Ganon.
The 7 crystals are Desert Palace, Palace of Darkness, Swamp Palace, Skull Woods, Thieves' Town, Ice Palace and Misery Mire. I'm guessing you never defeated Lanmolas'? If not, you also missed out on Boots it would seem.
The ice bomb jump isn't pixel perfect and isn't so bad once you know how. It's fairly common knowledge within the speedrunning community. Again remember that this was aimed at speedrunners and not as a casual hack, I just shared it here because I'd already made it. So there are different levels of expected knowledge, I guess. I didn't expect (m)any people to like it here, but heyho.
Everything possible with fake flippers was planned, so yes I knew you could get to Zora's Domain with it. Nice to see you thought of that though!
The credits are part of the usual randomizer ROM, that's actually not something I did exclusively for this hack. But it's quite interesting to get stats of your playthrough, don't you think?
It was meant to be really difficult, frustrating and confusing so it seems I succeeded in what I had planned! Sorry you didn't like it though heh. Seems like I've got my revenge after playing through some of your earlier hacks!
Mon 6 Feb 2017 - 12:27 by Puzzledude
Good to know, however I had 5 hearts at the time, when I thought the sword was necessary. Could not find the blue or the red mail (that guy doesn't want to move despite 10 second limit).You get the Tempered Sword in Bryna Cave by using bombs to inflict 1/2 damage to yourself instead of 1 damage at the start and end (since you have Blue Mail) together with using the Hookshot to hook to the torches and boots to dash during the i-frames, and a potion to restore health. It's tight, but doable, with 6 hearts. It's the hardest part to execute/solve.
That's clear now. I actually dropped down that hole and forgot you land at Tower of Hera, but I already solved it with bg2 glitch.Once you have the sword, you can take Ganon to his 3rd phase (whose opening message is "You will never find my secret", to indicate something is hidden) and if you fall down, you will find a secret hole which takes you to Tower of Hera and thus you can get Ether and enter Turtle Rock normally.
I found all 3 pendants and the Master Sword, but still did not know how to defeat Ganon with it. I'm guessing the spin attack (similar on how to be able to defeat him in ALttP with no silver arrows).This is where you get the 3rd pendant (the other 2 being in Ganon's Tower) and then get the Master Sword and can kill Ganon.
I actually forgot to defeat Blind lol. So yea, got all crystals now.The 7 crystals are Desert Palace, Palace of Darkness, Swamp Palace, Skull Woods, Thieves' Town, Ice Palace and Misery Mire. I'm guessing you never defeated Lanmolas'? If not, you also missed out on Boots it would seem.
The ice bomb jump isn't pixel perfect and isn't so bad once you know how. It's fairly common knowledge within the speedrunning community. Again remember that this was aimed at speedrunners and not as a casual hack.
I guess speedrunners have some above average talent in playing.It was meant to be really difficult, frustrating and confusing so it seems I succeeded in what I had planned! Sorry you didn't like it though heh. Seems like I've got my revenge after playing through some of your earlier hacks!
Mon 6 Feb 2017 - 13:18 by ChristosOwen
Ah that would make sense as Blind had the Blue Mail which was a big part of the requirement to get through Byrna Cave! There are 4 late game HP's at Helmasaur King, Arrghus, Kholdstare and in GT to give you 5 and once you have Hammer you can get a heart container from Agahnim's Tower (in the second chest in there) which makes 6.
You can break the barrier to Aganim's Tower with the Hammer when you're swordless if you've traded it into the Smiths before, a cute fun vanilla mechanic not many people know about! Also one of the hardest things to find/solve.
Yeah spin attacks just as he teleports is the way to defeat Ganon (exactly as you said in original ALttP without silver arrows) so you have that exactly right!
Well even the top speedrunners severely struggled with this as it's very obscure game knowledge and frustrating game execution, so it probably is too hard! I'm a bit of a sadist apparently!
You can break the barrier to Aganim's Tower with the Hammer when you're swordless if you've traded it into the Smiths before, a cute fun vanilla mechanic not many people know about! Also one of the hardest things to find/solve.
Yeah spin attacks just as he teleports is the way to defeat Ganon (exactly as you said in original ALttP without silver arrows) so you have that exactly right!
Well even the top speedrunners severely struggled with this as it's very obscure game knowledge and frustrating game execution, so it probably is too hard! I'm a bit of a sadist apparently!
Mon 6 Feb 2017 - 18:45 by Puzzledude
I actually didn't know you have a completel playthrough on Twitch. So now that I've seen it, I actually feel more confident to give this another try (NMG this time). So basically my real problems with solving were due to the fact of being completely blind while solving and didn't know how much glitch exploit was used. I also have an idea of slight remodel: one version to more HP and Lamp (minor edit) and one to be even more difficult (lol). Like said, that playthrough changes everything, since you can then see what all is possible (like Blind defeated with Somaria and that bomb jump - the way you solved it and explained it makes it a lot more doable).
Also, I can give you some bug reports:
-when you are in rain mode, you can come to those soldiers who are preventing you to leave the area around your house... from the other side, making the game go into scroll bug and freeze,
-when in rain mode, you can go to Zora's domain and Master sword area with some glitched sprites
Not sure if this actually is debuggable, since those sprites need to be there as far as I know, since you never should reach those area while rain, yet the game needs these sprites I believe - specially since some are somehow mirrors of dark worlds sprites.
Also, I can give you some bug reports:
-when you are in rain mode, you can come to those soldiers who are preventing you to leave the area around your house... from the other side, making the game go into scroll bug and freeze,
-when in rain mode, you can go to Zora's domain and Master sword area with some glitched sprites
Not sure if this actually is debuggable, since those sprites need to be there as far as I know, since you never should reach those area while rain, yet the game needs these sprites I believe - specially since some are somehow mirrors of dark worlds sprites.
Tue 7 Feb 2017 - 4:08 by ChristosOwen
Ah yes I do have a test playthrough on my Twitch! I plan to do a proper playthrough of it explaining/commentating things rather than testing sometime in the next few weeks. I'll make sure I highlight that. I think the final version may have had some very minor tweaks compared to the one on my current VOD, though, but it's the same for the most part.
Your suggestions are good ones, specifically I think I may do a "Kaizo lite" version which:
- Adds Lamp before most dark rooms
- Increases HP (perhaps to 7-8 hearts; I still want Byrna cave to be challenging!)
- Reduce HP of some bosses (just slightly)
- Reduce damage dealt by some damage classes
With these changes it would definitely become more accessible I think, while still having the overall puzzle design and be challenging 'enough'.
Yes unfortunately I know about those bugs, but couldn't think of a good way to prevent them. The guards is a big one as you can softlock with an infinite scroll as you say... at the moment I'm hoping people will use the flute to get around instead of walking, and if it does happen to them once, to then use the flute from then on.
You are also right that there are some glitchy sprites around in the rain at Zora's Domain, Master Sword and Bridge Hobo (with fake flippers) but again I couldn't think of a good way to prevent them. These are harmless so I'm not too worried though. There are also some more minor bugs where boss music doesn't play correctly (e.g. Trinexx), the map doesn't work and after Lanmolas' Link's sprite graphics will be messed up (this one is actually really cool looking!).
My romhacking is poor and I didn't want to ask for more help from the people who already spent a lot of timing making changes for me. Perhaps I'll improve my skills and update this myself.
Thanks for the feedback/ideas and for playing! Let me know how you get on if you do another!
Last edited by ChristosOwen on Tue 7 Feb 2017 - 6:50; edited 1 time in total
Your suggestions are good ones, specifically I think I may do a "Kaizo lite" version which:
- Adds Lamp before most dark rooms
- Increases HP (perhaps to 7-8 hearts; I still want Byrna cave to be challenging!)
- Reduce HP of some bosses (just slightly)
- Reduce damage dealt by some damage classes
With these changes it would definitely become more accessible I think, while still having the overall puzzle design and be challenging 'enough'.
Yes unfortunately I know about those bugs, but couldn't think of a good way to prevent them. The guards is a big one as you can softlock with an infinite scroll as you say... at the moment I'm hoping people will use the flute to get around instead of walking, and if it does happen to them once, to then use the flute from then on.
You are also right that there are some glitchy sprites around in the rain at Zora's Domain, Master Sword and Bridge Hobo (with fake flippers) but again I couldn't think of a good way to prevent them. These are harmless so I'm not too worried though. There are also some more minor bugs where boss music doesn't play correctly (e.g. Trinexx), the map doesn't work and after Lanmolas' Link's sprite graphics will be messed up (this one is actually really cool looking!).
My romhacking is poor and I didn't want to ask for more help from the people who already spent a lot of timing making changes for me. Perhaps I'll improve my skills and update this myself.
Thanks for the feedback/ideas and for playing! Let me know how you get on if you do another!
Last edited by ChristosOwen on Tue 7 Feb 2017 - 6:50; edited 1 time in total
Tue 7 Feb 2017 - 6:49 by ChristosOwen
Here's a "Kaizo lite" version with the above changes:
https://puu.sh/tSeEK/50d9d7aabe.ips
Same readme as before:
https://puu.sh/tSeFv/7873b4d495.txt
https://puu.sh/tSeEK/50d9d7aabe.ips
Same readme as before:
https://puu.sh/tSeFv/7873b4d495.txt
Tue 7 Feb 2017 - 7:02 by Puzzledude
Yes unfortunately I know about those bugs, but couldn't think of a good way to prevent them. The guards is a big one as you can softlock with an infinite scroll as you say... at the moment I'm hoping people will use the flute to get around instead of walking, and if it does happen to them once, to then use the flute from then on.
You are also right that there are some glitchy sprites around in the rain at Zora's Domain, Master Sword and Bridge Hobo (with fake flippers) but again I couldn't think of a good way to prevent them. These are harmless so I'm not too worried though.
I can actually hack this for you. If there would be access to the Rom with Hyrule Magic, this would be an easy fix, but with Japan, you need to do it via hex (like Parallel Worlds). So you use the US version for the change and track it with hex compare and do another "find" in the Japan version (code is slightly misplaced, but essentially the same). That way I/you can: change the sprites in Zora domain and Master sword to NOP (ie sprite 1D= useless sprite) and also reposition the guards at your house so that their coordiantes are slightly away from the screen transit - to block players off from both sides, without the bug appearing (needs testing after to actually verify if you are blocked from both sides, but should work).My romhacking is poor and I didn't want to ask for more help from the people who already spent a lot of timing making changes for me. Perhaps I'll improve my skills and update this myself.
I can also make a debug/lite version myself, specifically to implement what seemed extreme or a bugged situation. Lamp is mandatory I would say (since I could solve a dark room or two, but sooner or later you will come to the impossible room, like the room in Turtle's rock or the maze in Dark palace).
HP is a fine idea too, I would say 8 containers here (as you can miss the one in Agahnm's dungeon and are at 7).
Some ideas/debug notes on the lite version:
-early 3 bombs are a debug problem (what if you throw them away, they don't respawn in the chest). If you miss the guard its game over. I actually debugged this already.
-I can fix/turn off the early Turtle rock glitch jump (known in the Japan version), since if you do this jump and enter in the left cave, you are again permastuck, and the I believe this jump was not planed in the Kaizo.
-I can prevent the "fake flippers" with a fence, since you can swim to Zora and then jump down that waterfall - again permastucks the game, since now the fake flippers glitch is "undone" when you fall down the waterfall.
-Consequence of removing both glitch exploits (fake flippers and bunny revival) is then the need to actually swap Moonpearl and Titan's mitt (and the result is the same). However further edit needs to be made by changing that black rock which brings you infront of the ice palace to a white rock and flute location 8 is on the island.
-Result is: no glitch is possible (can not perform fake flippers due to fence and the Turtle rock jump, and thus also no bunny revival).
-Global result: glitches are not needed at all, Zora's faterfall jump is debugged, left cave from early Turtle rock debugged, since no jump possible; while the gameplay stays the same.
Like said, I can send you my idea/Rom for the Lite version and then you decide what to implement and what not (you see, I don't want to turn off fake flippers just because of taste, but because of debug, since this essentially is a bug/paradox). I think you will gain a lot more audience with the Lite version and then both versions (original and lite) can be released on RHDN. This will surely be importaint, since we all know SMW Kaizo is somewhat famous, so it is not every day that ALTTP also gets its Kaizo version.
Those don't need fixing in my opponion. This would need ASM trace to fix, so too much work for no result. I also did not see anything unusual after Lanmolas.There are also some more minor bugs where boss music doesn't play correctly (e.g. Trinexx), the map doesn't work and after Lanmolas' Link's sprite graphics will be messed up (this one is actually really cool looking!).
Tue 7 Feb 2017 - 7:34 by Puzzledude
Here some more sword paradoxes to look into:
-you have sword-1, but despite having mirror, you don't go to smiths (don't rescue the smith), now you go to the cave and get sword-3 (normal upgrade). Smiths will not temper sword-3 and will thus not take your sword in exchange for Somaria. Result is: Somaria is lost
I miscalculated here: Somaria is needed to get the hammer (Vitreous drop), and hammer to get sword-3, so this is ok,
and by the time you can exchange the sword, you need mirror (which is in Misery Mire), so when you have no sword, the Mire is opened (needs sword+quake), which is also ok,
this is very well thought out by the way! (no paradoxes).
-when you have sword-3 and the big bomb appears, you can throw your sword-3 in and get the ice rod. But the Turtle rock is not opened. Without the sword you can not open it (despite having Ether) and also can not fight Ganon until stage-1 to drop to Hera to even get Ether, so basically you don't have sword-3 or Ether. Also can not get sword-2, since pendant-1 is in Turtle rock (this is why I assumed you planed that glitch-jump to Turtle rock).
LoL, ice rod gives back sword-3
Last edited by Puzzledude on Tue 7 Feb 2017 - 9:10; edited 1 time in total
-
I miscalculated here: Somaria is needed to get the hammer (Vitreous drop), and hammer to get sword-3, so this is ok,
and by the time you can exchange the sword, you need mirror (which is in Misery Mire), so when you have no sword, the Mire is opened (needs sword+quake), which is also ok,
this is very well thought out by the way! (no paradoxes).
-
LoL, ice rod gives back sword-3
Last edited by Puzzledude on Tue 7 Feb 2017 - 9:10; edited 1 time in total
Tue 7 Feb 2017 - 8:08 by ChristosOwen
I can make the ROM available if you wish to make some edits. What is the best way to do so?
The Kaizo Lite I posted gives 8 hearts in total, gives Lamp in Eastern before the Eyegore small key but after the Big Key chest, so you at least have to do a couple in the dark but they're not so hard. It also reduced damage some enemies inflict and decreased most boss HP to be closer to the original.
In response to your suggestions:
Under the bridge where the Bottle Hobo is would also need to have sprites set to NOP in addition to Zora's Domain and the Master Sword screen. Although this isn't a problem if fake flippers are removed of course.
Putting guards on both sides or lowering them so the hitbox registers on both screens would work. This would need to be done for every entrance to the castle screen (I count 4 sets of guards).
Limiting bombs to 3 in total was a design choice and I wouldn't argue it is a bug. If you have to reset, this is fine since it's so early on it barely matters. It sets up the theme of managing your resources well and I like the challenge it gives. After all, it really is only 2 guards and with a little time experimenting you can get good strategies down. With that said, changing the 2 early bombs to 3x each would be fine.
I would not worry about the consequences of any glitches (like the Turtle Rock jump) since this is meant to be played without major glitches. If a player wishes to use major glitches there are hundreds of ways they can break the game so that's their decision. I do not want to worry about the consequence of such out of bounds. This was also not required, so am a little unsure why you think it is? But if you wish to prevent it then that is also fine.
Removing fake flippers and dungeon bunny would be okay for a Lite version. I could place the Titan's Mitts earlier in Ice Palace to remove the requirement to do the bomb jump. And Moon Pearl at King Zora works nicely. With your suggestions of changing flute spot 8 to land you on the island and making the rock a white rock, this will be fine.
However if someone does decide to use dungeon bunny revival they could sequence break by getting Mitts early (before ending the rain state) and then heading up Death Mountain. Using the portal there will allow them to gain a bonus HP since the DW rain uses the LW sprites, so the Spectacle Rock HP is obtainable. I would like for some way to prevent this (removing the HP or adding rocks/bushes around it would work, since you can't lift them as a bunny and in order to get the Moon Pearl from King Zora you would have to end the rain to load the sprite).
Adding a fence to prevent fake flippers: sure. Although if we remove the requirement for needing them and update flute spot 8 to the island, it no longer matters if someone actually uses them, so this change might be a bit pointless?
The Hammer is required in order to obtain the level 3 sword, and you need to have Somaria to get the Hammer, so this isn't an issue, as you said in your edit!
The Fat Faerie trades the level 3 sword and Ice Rod infinitely as I already considered that Turtle Rock situation! I would hope if someone found themself in a softlock they would try returning the Ice Rod!
Last edited by ChristosOwen on Wed 8 Feb 2017 - 7:50; edited 1 time in total
The Kaizo Lite I posted gives 8 hearts in total, gives Lamp in Eastern before the Eyegore small key but after the Big Key chest, so you at least have to do a couple in the dark but they're not so hard. It also reduced damage some enemies inflict and decreased most boss HP to be closer to the original.
In response to your suggestions:
Under the bridge where the Bottle Hobo is would also need to have sprites set to NOP in addition to Zora's Domain and the Master Sword screen. Although this isn't a problem if fake flippers are removed of course.
Putting guards on both sides or lowering them so the hitbox registers on both screens would work. This would need to be done for every entrance to the castle screen (I count 4 sets of guards).
Limiting bombs to 3 in total was a design choice and I wouldn't argue it is a bug. If you have to reset, this is fine since it's so early on it barely matters. It sets up the theme of managing your resources well and I like the challenge it gives. After all, it really is only 2 guards and with a little time experimenting you can get good strategies down. With that said, changing the 2 early bombs to 3x each would be fine.
I would not worry about the consequences of any glitches (like the Turtle Rock jump) since this is meant to be played without major glitches. If a player wishes to use major glitches there are hundreds of ways they can break the game so that's their decision. I do not want to worry about the consequence of such out of bounds. This was also not required, so am a little unsure why you think it is? But if you wish to prevent it then that is also fine.
Removing fake flippers and dungeon bunny would be okay for a Lite version. I could place the Titan's Mitts earlier in Ice Palace to remove the requirement to do the bomb jump. And Moon Pearl at King Zora works nicely. With your suggestions of changing flute spot 8 to land you on the island and making the rock a white rock, this will be fine.
However if someone does decide to use dungeon bunny revival they could sequence break by getting Mitts early (before ending the rain state) and then heading up Death Mountain. Using the portal there will allow them to gain a bonus HP since the DW rain uses the LW sprites, so the Spectacle Rock HP is obtainable. I would like for some way to prevent this (removing the HP or adding rocks/bushes around it would work, since you can't lift them as a bunny and in order to get the Moon Pearl from King Zora you would have to end the rain to load the sprite).
Adding a fence to prevent fake flippers: sure. Although if we remove the requirement for needing them and update flute spot 8 to the island, it no longer matters if someone actually uses them, so this change might be a bit pointless?
The Hammer is required in order to obtain the level 3 sword, and you need to have Somaria to get the Hammer, so this isn't an issue, as you said in your edit!
The Fat Faerie trades the level 3 sword and Ice Rod infinitely as I already considered that Turtle Rock situation! I would hope if someone found themself in a softlock they would try returning the Ice Rod!
Last edited by ChristosOwen on Wed 8 Feb 2017 - 7:50; edited 1 time in total
Wed 8 Feb 2017 - 5:22 by Puzzledude
Currently working on the debug and adoptation of the Lite version. Already debugged: Zora, under bridge, Master sword false sprites in the Rain mode (false pointers), and the Palace guards problem (if you visit the areas from the other side), as well as fencing all indoor Hyrule castle jumps to bg2 (avoids the bg2 bug= ie exploration glitch, at least from this dungeon).
Christos, do note, that your original release remains intact (will debug this after the adopt of the Lite is done, but only guards and false sprites, the glitch exploit remains).
I think this Lite version will definitely be for a wide audience (while still being quite difficult, sort of a Master quest category), while the original release is more suitable for speedruners/experts.
Christos, do note, that your original release remains intact (will debug this after the adopt of the Lite is done, but only guards and false sprites, the glitch exploit remains).
I think this Lite version will definitely be for a wide audience (while still being quite difficult, sort of a Master quest category), while the original release is more suitable for speedruners/experts.
Wed 8 Feb 2017 - 7:48 by ChristosOwen
Thank you Puzz! Would be great to have my original version with those fixes you mentioned.
As for the Lite version; would you like me to make any of the changes moving items etc once you are done with the edits you intend to make? Also, did you use the Lite version I posted earlier, or are you making changes to hearts, enemy HP/damage, and item locations yourself? The reason I ask, is I would still need to update the Moon Pearl/Mitts after your changes are complete, as well as adding more bombs in the Escape.
As for the Lite version; would you like me to make any of the changes moving items etc once you are done with the edits you intend to make? Also, did you use the Lite version I posted earlier, or are you making changes to hearts, enemy HP/damage, and item locations yourself? The reason I ask, is I would still need to update the Moon Pearl/Mitts after your changes are complete, as well as adding more bombs in the Escape.
Wed 8 Feb 2017 - 9:04 by Puzzledude
As for the Lite version; would you like me to make any of the changes moving items etc once you are done with the edits you intend to make?
I think the game will be complete after I finished editing, since it already uses your lite version as base. So both ideas, yours and mine are implemented. My edits are minor: mainly debug and generally more fair, like 3 bombs instead of 1 bomb in the first 2 chests for instance, so that players can actually get to Zelda and realize that they can not rescue her yet.Also, did you use the Lite version I posted earlier, or are you making changes to hearts, enemy HP/damage, and item locations yourself?
Also, players might panic in that room with the 2nd Flute, since the door closes and you can not get out (unless save and quit), so the door is regular with no shutter (so either save and quit or they can go out on foot). This also falls under debug actually.
Like said no need. Since I'm actually playing through while editing. This then only needs one final playthrough of what should already be tested.The reason I ask, is I would still need to update the Moon Pearl/Mitts after your changes are complete, as well as adding more bombs in the Escape.
Here some screenshots
See this actually needed to be tested on the fly, if the new positions actually block the player from both sides and that you can still go south (for this one value higher was not enough, but 2 hex values, so now you need 3 guards). As you can see, thus the hacker also needs to be a tester, as after hacking you need to test if it works and then rehack is usually necessary until you get it right or at least to verify if it actually works.
This was solved with the pointer: now the Beginning mode (ie Rain) pointer for sprites points to the same place as part1 (no rain), for the Zoras I made it point to FF (ie empty) like most areas when in Rain mode.
Nintendo never bothered to fix this: their pointer was false, thus bugged sprites. But like said they didn't bother as you otherwise (original game) can never come to Zoras or Sword areas in Rain mode. The rest is just at least pointed to empty (ie no sprites).
Wed 8 Feb 2017 - 10:39 by ChristosOwen
Your changes look great so far! Ok, that sounds good. So the changes I didn't make yet are below.
Beginning Section
- Link's House: Change from 1 bomb to 3 bombs.
- Link's Uncle: Leave as broken flute
- Chest after Uncle: Leave as 1 bomb (since 5 is max)
- Blue Guard Chest: Change from 1 bomb to 3 bombs.
- Boomerang Chest: Leave as working flute
So changing 2 chests here. This gives 7 bombs and you need to hit 3 times, I think that is fair for a Kaizo experience!
Overworld Changes
- King Zora (change from Titan's Mitts to Moon Pearl)
Ice Palace
It's probably easiest to refer to the below map to indicate which chests I am talking about:
http://ian-albert.com/games/legend_of_zelda_a_link_to_the_past_maps/
- B1 Compass Chest: Change to single heart refill
- B3 Small Key Chest: Change to Small Key
- B4 3 Bomb Chest: Change to single heart refill
- B5 Small Key Chest: Change to Titan's Mitts
This removes the need to do bomb jumps but still forces you to explore some of Ice Palace with low hearts, which should be part of the Kaizo experience.
Debugging
- Everything you are working on
- Spectacle Rock heart piece in the rain I mentioned
This should then be everything!
Beginning Section
- Link's House: Change from 1 bomb to 3 bombs.
- Link's Uncle: Leave as broken flute
- Chest after Uncle: Leave as 1 bomb (since 5 is max)
- Blue Guard Chest: Change from 1 bomb to 3 bombs.
- Boomerang Chest: Leave as working flute
So changing 2 chests here. This gives 7 bombs and you need to hit 3 times, I think that is fair for a Kaizo experience!
Overworld Changes
- King Zora (change from Titan's Mitts to Moon Pearl)
Ice Palace
It's probably easiest to refer to the below map to indicate which chests I am talking about:
http://ian-albert.com/games/legend_of_zelda_a_link_to_the_past_maps/
- B1 Compass Chest: Change to single heart refill
- B3 Small Key Chest: Change to Small Key
- B4 3 Bomb Chest: Change to single heart refill
- B5 Small Key Chest: Change to Titan's Mitts
This removes the need to do bomb jumps but still forces you to explore some of Ice Palace with low hearts, which should be part of the Kaizo experience.
Debugging
- Everything you are working on
- Spectacle Rock heart piece in the rain I mentioned
This should then be everything!
Thu 9 Feb 2017 - 6:52 by Puzzledude
Because of the techinal side, I have to rethink some strategies. This is common in hacking. For instance: area 40 (dark world forest): part1 and part2 sprite mode, has shared sprites with area 80 of light world in beginning sprite mode. This will be solved with 1 guard in empty area 00 (which is doable).
Zora (81) is shared with 41 (but this is merged with 40, since 40 is big area, thus no area 41 exists), so this is ok.
Also, preventing fake flippers is not doable (to much edits for the hex-edit-only limit to handle), since the new drawing elemnets are needed even. So I left Zora to give you Mitts, but could find another location for Moonpearl, which is ideal. So only 3 chest need to circle their content here.
Bunny revival is fixed and I could also put the fly8 to the island (so fake flippers can or can't be used, makes no difference).
I think this version will be great to play for a wider audience, while stil having the Kaizo feel and the Randomizer feel (while your original version is also intact, which is essential).
Zora (81) is shared with 41 (but this is merged with 40, since 40 is big area, thus no area 41 exists), so this is ok.
Also, preventing fake flippers is not doable (to much edits for the hex-edit-only limit to handle), since the new drawing elemnets are needed even. So I left Zora to give you Mitts, but could find another location for Moonpearl, which is ideal. So only 3 chest need to circle their content here.
Bunny revival is fixed and I could also put the fly8 to the island (so fake flippers can or can't be used, makes no difference).
I think this version will be great to play for a wider audience, while stil having the Kaizo feel and the Randomizer feel (while your original version is also intact, which is essential).
Thu 9 Feb 2017 - 8:18 by ChristosOwen
Ok, whatever works is fine with me.
As for fake flippers, I don't think it's worth preventing it. Changing flute spot 8 to the island is a good idea though.
I still think it works better if you switch all the chests/item locations I mentioned in my previous post. Mainly Moon Pearl at Zora and Titan's Mitts inside Ice Palace.
An easy way to force Moon Pearl before Ice Palace is to change the island rock to a white one, AND to put a bush/rock/whatever in front of the dungeon in the dark world. Anything that means you can't get inside as a bunny and thus need Moon Pearl. You could even make an edit inside the dungeon instead, so long as you block the ice elemental in some pots or something so you can't lift them as a bunny, it prevents bunny revival.
This also prevents the Death Mountain heart piece in the rain state which I mentioned so this is perhaps the best solution.
As for fake flippers, I don't think it's worth preventing it. Changing flute spot 8 to the island is a good idea though.
I still think it works better if you switch all the chests/item locations I mentioned in my previous post. Mainly Moon Pearl at Zora and Titan's Mitts inside Ice Palace.
An easy way to force Moon Pearl before Ice Palace is to change the island rock to a white one, AND to put a bush/rock/whatever in front of the dungeon in the dark world. Anything that means you can't get inside as a bunny and thus need Moon Pearl. You could even make an edit inside the dungeon instead, so long as you block the ice elemental in some pots or something so you can't lift them as a bunny, it prevents bunny revival.
This also prevents the Death Mountain heart piece in the rain state which I mentioned so this is perhaps the best solution.
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