A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition
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20170203
A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition
Patch Download:
Kaizoalttp.ips
- Faq/Readme:
- A Link to the Past: Kaizo by ChristosOwen
--- What is A Link to the Past: Kaizo? ---
This is an extremely difficult mini-hack aimed at speedrunners. It's mostly the same as the original game, except it shuffles items around in order to create an interesting and unique path through the game. There are some romhacking elements too which will make you laugh (or cry).
--- How difficult are we talking? ---
It's very challenging from both a puzzle solving and execution perspective. It requires an in-depth knowledge of the game and its mechanics, as well as a high level of skill. Kaizo hacks are intentionally designed to feel unfair and to test your thinking, patience and skill -- this one is no exception.
--- Who is responsible for this travesty!? ---
I designed the overall concept and progression. I was lucky enough to have Superskuj, Karkat and Zarby help me with the numerous romhacking aspects. Huge thanks to you guys!
--- What's actually new then? ---
Everything that's possible/required in this hack is also possible in the original (Japanese 1.0) version of the game. However the opposite is NOT true: there are things which are possible in the original game which are NOT possible in this hack. A very simple example is that mini-helmasaurs can no longer be knocked back into pits in this hack, whereas in the original game you could do that.
Everything changed will be obvious to the player when playing.
--- What advanced knowledge do I need to know? ---
You'll need to know a few tricks and minor glitches, some exclusive to the Japanese 1.0 version. Specifically:
- Fake flippers
- Dungeon bunny revival
- Bomb jumps (some advanced ones, some not used in speedruns)
--- How long do you expect this to take? ---
Some of the top speedrunners who can beat the original in under 2 hours have taken 12+ hours to beat this. You may want to consider using savestates if you're really struggling.
--- Important Notes ---
NOTE 1: This was made before the "fake powder" glitch was discovered so it is not expected you use this glitch. That location still contains Half Magic since it was meant to be impossible to get it. Getting Half Magic really ruins the intended difficulty so I recommend not doing that!
NOTE 2: The map is permanently disabled. This was made before pendant/crystal randomization existed between dungeons so that had to be done manually. The result broke the map and I found disabling it to be the simpler solution at the time.
NOTE 3: While in the rain state please ensure you AVOID scrolling TOWARDS the "Link's House" and "Hyrule Castle" overworld screens from the surrounding screens. The rain-state guards are still present and you will get stuck in their hitboxes and softlock! This was an oversight and ideally these guys will be moved in a future version.
NOTE 4: You do NOT need to use any major glitches to complete this hack!
--- Good Luck & Have Fun! ---
The best way to play this is to throw out all assumptions you have about how the progression through the game will go. The next task required to progress will usually not be what you'd be required to do in the original!
--- Spoilery Notes ---
STOP READING NOW IF YOU DON'T WANT SPOILERS!!!
If you want a true blind experience you should stop reading now. Some things here may spoil the puzzles and surprises.
NOTE 1: This was made on a very old V7 version of the randomizer in early 2017. As such, some things will not be how you expect them to be if you're playing this in 2018 or thereafter. One notable difference is the Pyramid/Waterfall Fairies did not have chests in them yet. You can interact with them by walking up to them just like you ordinarily would in the original. New interactions with them may also be possible so bear that in mind!
NOTE 2: It is possible to softlock in the initial rain-state prologue if you run out of resources - this is intended design! Manage your resources extremely effectively or restarts may be required. This sequence is fairly short so it shouldn't be very frustrating. Once you beat the prologue you can never softlock yourself again (unless you use major glitches, etc).
- Some pot/enemy keys have been removed (note: removed, NOT moved elsewhere)
- No new pot/enemy keys have been added
- Enemy HP has been changed (mostly increased)
- No enemies are completely invincible
- Damage output from enemies has been changed (mostly increased)
- Enemy vulnerabilities have been changed (no NEW weapons work on enemies/bosses but some that used to work no longer do)
- Enemy prize packs have been changed (these are specifically chosen for each enemy group, most are now 100% drop rates)
- Some properties have been changed about most enemies (e.g. block projectiles from the front, cannot fall down pits, etc)
- Starting heart count has been reduced to 1
- Bomb capacity has (initially) been capped at 5 and arrow capacity has (initially) been capped at 10
- Multiple copies of some items exist
- It is not possible to finish with a full inventory
- Dark navigation is required (you will have an item available to help navigate before any dark rooms are necessary)
- Maps may be useful: http://ian-albert.com/games/legend_of_zelda_a_link_to_the_past_maps/
RAW Paste Data
A Link to the Past: Kaizo by ChristosOwen
--- What is A Link to the Past: Kaizo? ---
This is an extremely difficult mini-hack aimed at speedrunners. It's mostly the same as the original game, except it shuffles items around in order to create an interesting and unique path through the game. There are some romhacking elements too which will make you laugh (or cry).
--- How difficult are we talking? ---
It's very challenging from both a puzzle solving and execution perspective. It requires an in-depth knowledge of the game and its mechanics, as well as a high level of skill. Kaizo hacks are intentionally designed to feel unfair and to test your thinking, patience and skill -- this one is no exception.
--- Who is responsible for this travesty!? ---
I designed the overall concept and progression. I was lucky enough to have Superskuj, Karkat and Zarby help me with the numerous romhacking aspects. Huge thanks to you guys!
--- What's actually new then? ---
Everything that's possible/required in this hack is also possible in the original (Japanese 1.0) version of the game. However the opposite is NOT true: there are things which are possible in the original game which are NOT possible in this hack. A very simple example is that mini-helmasaurs can no longer be knocked back into pits in this hack, whereas in the original game you could do that.
Everything changed will be obvious to the player when playing.
--- What advanced knowledge do I need to know? ---
You'll need to know a few tricks and minor glitches, some exclusive to the Japanese 1.0 version. Specifically:
- Fake flippers
- Dungeon bunny revival
- Bomb jumps (some advanced ones, some not used in speedruns)
--- How long do you expect this to take? ---
Some of the top speedrunners who can beat the original in under 2 hours have taken 12+ hours to beat this. You may want to consider using savestates if you're really struggling.
--- Important Notes ---
NOTE 1: This was made before the "fake powder" glitch was discovered so it is not expected you use this glitch. That location still contains Half Magic since it was meant to be impossible to get it. Getting Half Magic really ruins the intended difficulty so I recommend not doing that!
NOTE 2: The map is permanently disabled. This was made before pendant/crystal randomization existed between dungeons so that had to be done manually. The result broke the map and I found disabling it to be the simpler solution at the time.
NOTE 3: While in the rain state please ensure you AVOID scrolling TOWARDS the "Link's House" and "Hyrule Castle" overworld screens from the surrounding screens. The rain-state guards are still present and you will get stuck in their hitboxes and softlock! This was an oversight and ideally these guys will be moved in a future version.
NOTE 4: You do NOT need to use any major glitches to complete this hack!
--- Good Luck & Have Fun! ---
The best way to play this is to throw out all assumptions you have about how the progression through the game will go. The next task required to progress will usually not be what you'd be required to do in the original!
--- Spoilery Notes ---
STOP READING NOW IF YOU DON'T WANT SPOILERS!!!
If you want a true blind experience you should stop reading now. Some things here may spoil the puzzles and surprises.
NOTE 1: This was made on a very old V7 version of the randomizer in early 2017. As such, some things will not be how you expect them to be if you're playing this in 2018 or thereafter. One notable difference is the Pyramid/Waterfall Fairies did not have chests in them yet. You can interact with them by walking up to them just like you ordinarily would in the original. New interactions with them may also be possible so bear that in mind!
NOTE 2: It is possible to softlock in the initial rain-state prologue if you run out of resources - this is intended design! Manage your resources extremely effectively or restarts may be required. This sequence is fairly short so it shouldn't be very frustrating. Once you beat the prologue you can never softlock yourself again (unless you use major glitches, etc).
- Some pot/enemy keys have been removed (note: removed, NOT moved elsewhere)
- No new pot/enemy keys have been added
- Enemy HP has been changed (mostly increased)
- No enemies are completely invincible
- Damage output from enemies has been changed (mostly increased)
- Enemy vulnerabilities have been changed (no NEW weapons work on enemies/bosses but some that used to work no longer do)
- Enemy prize packs have been changed (these are specifically chosen for each enemy group, most are now 100% drop rates)
- Some properties have been changed about most enemies (e.g. block projectiles from the front, cannot fall down pits, etc)
- Starting heart count has been reduced to 1
- Bomb capacity has (initially) been capped at 5 and arrow capacity has (initially) been capped at 10
- Multiple copies of some items exist
- It is not possible to finish with a full inventory
- Dark navigation is required (you will have an item available to help navigate before any dark rooms are necessary)
- Maps may be useful: http://ian-albert.com/games/legend_of_zelda_a_link_to_the_past_maps/
----------------------------------------
Hello folks!
This is a mini hack called ALTTP: Kaizo. Patch to an unheadered US version ROM.
For those unfamiliar with the term Kaizo, here's an excerpt from our Super Mario World Kaizo cousin:
Kaizo Mario World features extremely difficult level designs and deliberately breaks many normal rules of "accepted" level design, such as placing invisible blocks where the player is likely to jump, thus causing the player to die. This cruelty and the resulting frustration, as well as the skill level required, is the purpose of the hack. The Japanese word 'kaizō' has a literal meaning of "reorganize but in this context it indicates an extreme level of (unfair) difficulty.
This hack is the ALTTP version of this.
It's based on the randomizer concept, which keeps the main game layout the same (overworld/dungeons) but changes the contents of each item location (chests, heart pieces, boss drops, and more). By doing this I have created a unique progression order as well as some unique and challenging puzzles, all within the familiar original setting. There are numerous pieces of minor romhacking to mix things up, which will make you either laugh or cry.
I have provided a more detailed readme containing further information:
https://puu.sh/tOFbT/e3e4953e7e.txt
Lastly, let me emphasise that this is extremely difficult and challenging. It hasn't been made to be fair to the player. It was created with speedrunners in mind and is extremely likely to be frustrating and confusing to most people. Expect to get stuck and die a lot.
I'm sharing it here in case there are any other sadists amongst us. Feedback is welcome, but please bear in mind the aim of the hack before saying it's too hard (because that's the point)!
Last edited by ChristosOwen on Sun 5 Feb 2017 - 1:13; edited 1 time in total
ChristosOwen
- Since : 2016-06-12
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A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition :: Comments
Thu 9 Feb 2017 - 14:21 by ChristosOwen
For example, putting a row of pots along this room would be an easy fix.
Thu 9 Feb 2017 - 15:03 by Puzzledude
Yes, this room was fixed, since the indoors can be edited to anything, because it has "regular" elements (as long as the number of elements is the same and even repointing to anywhere is possible due to 3 byte pointers, which are basically capable of JSL).
Unfortunately the overworld is somewhat not that friendly, so changing that black rock with the warp to white rock was not responding, since you see, a lot of overworld elements are unique, due to being 32x32 and are a gfx drawing. This is not really editable in hex, unless you have luck. You also have no options for new free elements which would be needed here. So specially undoing fake flippers is not doable (since you also have brown floor/grass here).
So I actually found another way, which is even better I believe.
PS
Can you tell me the location in Rom for the element drops from sprites, since it seems this was changed (repointed) to some other location from what the original game is using. (This is only for information purposes).
Unfortunately the overworld is somewhat not that friendly, so changing that black rock with the warp to white rock was not responding, since you see, a lot of overworld elements are unique, due to being 32x32 and are a gfx drawing. This is not really editable in hex, unless you have luck. You also have no options for new free elements which would be needed here. So specially undoing fake flippers is not doable (since you also have brown floor/grass here).
So I actually found another way, which is even better I believe.
PS
Can you tell me the location in Rom for the element drops from sprites, since it seems this was changed (repointed) to some other location from what the original game is using. (This is only for information purposes).
Thu 9 Feb 2017 - 15:05 by Puzzledude
Yes, the new chests' prizes are mainly the same as you have described in that post. Things that don't match are due to technical/debug reasons. This is common in romhacking: you have an idea, and want to make something, but then realize that the game for instance will not allow it (this is specially true in the Japan version, which will allow only hex/ASM editing).I still think it works better if you switch all the chests/item locations I mentioned in my previous post.
Thu 9 Feb 2017 - 16:23 by ChristosOwen
Fake flippers is a non-issue since you can activate it from multiple places, it's really not something worth worrying about. Nor is preventing EG or the Turtle Rock mirror clip, but I think you already did those changes anyway. As I said originally, if someone wants to use glitches then ultimately there is very little we can do to prevent them as there are hundreds of ways to perform them.
For the prize packs I used a sprite editor tool SuperSkuj made, rather than making any hex edits myself, so I'm not sure exactly how that was changed. I believe he posted it somewhere on this forum already though.
Unless the rock is changed for Ice Palace then Moon Pearl at Zora and Titan's Mitts in Ice Palace won't work. I already changed the overworld rock leading to Death Mountain from a white rock to a black rock with a hex edit. I'll see if I can find a way to do the Ice Palace rock too, so don't worry about that for now.
Once you are finished with your changes I will play through and tweak it myself, before releasing it fully.
Thanks!
For the prize packs I used a sprite editor tool SuperSkuj made, rather than making any hex edits myself, so I'm not sure exactly how that was changed. I believe he posted it somewhere on this forum already though.
Unless the rock is changed for Ice Palace then Moon Pearl at Zora and Titan's Mitts in Ice Palace won't work. I already changed the overworld rock leading to Death Mountain from a white rock to a black rock with a hex edit. I'll see if I can find a way to do the Ice Palace rock too, so don't worry about that for now.
Once you are finished with your changes I will play through and tweak it myself, before releasing it fully.
Thanks!
Thu 9 Feb 2017 - 16:48 by Puzzledude
Oh yea exactly, lol on my part.For the prize packs I used a sprite editor tool SuperSkuj made, rather than making any hex edits myself, so I'm not sure exactly how that was changed. I believe he posted it somewhere on this forum already though.
Unless the rock is changed for Ice Palace then Moon Pearl at Zora and Titan's Mitts in Ice Palace won't work. I already changed the overworld rock leading to Death Mountain from a white rock to a black rock with a hex edit. I'll see if I can find a way to do the Ice Palace rock too, so don't worry about that for now.
Yes, exactly, you'll see, my 3 chest cicle works perfectly.Once you are finished with your changes I will play through and tweak it myself, before releasing it fully.
So my version is this:
Zora still gives gloves-2, rock remains black.
But 3 chest cicle is: Moonperal moves to the so called cape room in ALTTP= you need glove-2 and shoes (which is ideal), the 100 rupees there move to dark forest (since the flippers chest was too easy and fast to get), while the flippers cicle to ice palace (where Moonpearl was).
So after I'm done, I suggest you play it through and simply decide what to change further to your wishes. You can for instance undo this cicle and then swap glove-2 and Moonpearl (and fix the rock).
Thu 9 Feb 2017 - 17:16 by ChristosOwen
That sounds like an interesting change, it sounds like it should play well. I'll give it a go when you're done!
Really appreciate your help by the way!
Really appreciate your help by the way!
Thu 9 Feb 2017 - 22:04 by Puzzledude
Sure. It is not every day that we are getting a Kaizo version for a game.
By the way, the prize packs are indeed editable with superskuj's sprite editor, however some expert had to edit the rest of the sprites, since not even I know how this was done:
namely: I tracked down the mushroom sprite in forest: code is 3 bytes: 15 1E E7, which is Y and X cordinate, E7 is sprite type. This is unchanged from the original game, but E7 is mushroom sprite. In Kaizo this is 100 rupees, which is not even a sprite to be picked from: all sprites in the game go from 00 to F2, and 100 rupees is not among them.
Furthermore: heartpice to cape is impossible through Hyrule Magic and skuj's sprite editor: sprite is heartpiece which is EB. But that sprite is now cape, on death mountain it is Mirror. Both sprites are again not available from the sprite list. No main item is, since they are only in chests, which have a different table.
So someone really needed to do something advanced here. My guess is to hook the code to the chest contents somehow and then made a new link between this and the sprites, while being area depended. This sounds like some advanced ASM, specially since the gfx is correct.
By the way, the prize packs are indeed editable with superskuj's sprite editor, however some expert had to edit the rest of the sprites, since not even I know how this was done:
namely: I tracked down the mushroom sprite in forest: code is 3 bytes: 15 1E E7, which is Y and X cordinate, E7 is sprite type. This is unchanged from the original game, but E7 is mushroom sprite. In Kaizo this is 100 rupees, which is not even a sprite to be picked from: all sprites in the game go from 00 to F2, and 100 rupees is not among them.
Furthermore: heartpice to cape is impossible through Hyrule Magic and skuj's sprite editor: sprite is heartpiece which is EB. But that sprite is now cape, on death mountain it is Mirror. Both sprites are again not available from the sprite list. No main item is, since they are only in chests, which have a different table.
So someone really needed to do something advanced here. My guess is to hook the code to the chest contents somehow and then made a new link between this and the sprites, while being area depended. This sounds like some advanced ASM, specially since the gfx is correct.
Thu 9 Feb 2017 - 22:14 by ChristosOwen
Ah yes, you would be talking about Karkat/mmxbass! He has put a lot of time and effort into developing the randomizer ROM which uses the Japanese 1.0 version as a base. I used an edited randomizer ROM as my base when constructing this. The randomizer is now more advanced that what is present in my Kaizo though as it is constantly being worked on and updated.
That would be why there is some different code. He also helped me make some specific changes for this Kaizo especially. The ROM is definitely "dirty" as it has gone through many changes from many different people from the original.
I think he checks this forum occasionally, but I speak to him every day on our ALTTP Discord sever where a lot of hacking/randomizer/speedrun discussion takes place. Feel free to join us there, or if you'd like to speak to him here I can let him know too!
That would be why there is some different code. He also helped me make some specific changes for this Kaizo especially. The ROM is definitely "dirty" as it has gone through many changes from many different people from the original.
I think he checks this forum occasionally, but I speak to him every day on our ALTTP Discord sever where a lot of hacking/randomizer/speedrun discussion takes place. Feel free to join us there, or if you'd like to speak to him here I can let him know too!
Fri 10 Feb 2017 - 1:12 by Puzzledude
Yes, like said, you might not realize it, but these randomizer programs actually have some special capabilities.
Meanwhile I found some problems in the dark palace. I know this is Kaizo and you wanted the idea of: unlock a door with a key to get a key, however actually this can render the dungeon impossible, since you already have the hammer and can also unlock that one door near the end of the dungeon (dark room just after you hit the statue's eye).
Now you have 0 keys and can no longer do 1 for 1 (this skips 2 areas which have nothing, but the third area has the big key, so unsolvable). I've already solved this problem.
The second thing I found is in the water dungeon: now you have the Hookshot right away, if you take the key right of the big chest and unlock the left door and move the push switch, you flood the other small key, again unsolvable situation. This was also solved.
This all shows the randomizer is a very well made editor, if it is able to do all those edits. Like said, it probably hooks to the chest definition treasure and can display them as sprites (with no chest).
Meanwhile I found some problems in the dark palace. I know this is Kaizo and you wanted the idea of: unlock a door with a key to get a key, however actually this can render the dungeon impossible, since you already have the hammer and can also unlock that one door near the end of the dungeon (dark room just after you hit the statue's eye).
Now you have 0 keys and can no longer do 1 for 1 (this skips 2 areas which have nothing, but the third area has the big key, so unsolvable). I've already solved this problem.
The second thing I found is in the water dungeon: now you have the Hookshot right away, if you take the key right of the big chest and unlock the left door and move the push switch, you flood the other small key, again unsolvable situation. This was also solved.
I heard about discord and was there as a guest.I think he checks this forum occasionally, but I speak to him every day on our ALTTP Discord sever where a lot of hacking/randomizer/speedrun discussion takes place. Feel free to join us there, or if you'd like to speak to him here I can let him know too!
This all shows the randomizer is a very well made editor, if it is able to do all those edits. Like said, it probably hooks to the chest definition treasure and can display them as sprites (with no chest).
Fri 10 Feb 2017 - 6:42 by zarby89
He rewrited the code almost entirely :p
alttp.run/karkat/randomizer/working
http://alttp.run/karkat/randomizer/working/utilities.asm
http://alttp.run/karkat/randomizer/working/heartpieces.asm
if you want help for overworld map you can always ask me
, it need to be uncompressed and recompressed and can't really be done without an editor
alttp.run/karkat/randomizer/working
http://alttp.run/karkat/randomizer/working/utilities.asm
http://alttp.run/karkat/randomizer/working/heartpieces.asm
if you want help for overworld map you can always ask me
, it need to be uncompressed and recompressed and can't really be done without an editor
Fri 10 Feb 2017 - 14:04 by ChristosOwen
Swamp Palace:
If you leave the dungeon and come back the water is no longer drained so you cannot softlock there. This is a change we already built into the randomizer. So nothing needs to be changed.
Palace of Darkness:
You can do a bomb jump ("hammer jump") to get to the dark maze where the big key is and thus continue, however no problem adding in another small key. However note that this small key CANNOT be in the first basement chest, or the 2 chests after you go through the east wing. This destroys the initial visit to the dungeon when you don't have hammer in order to get hookshot.
If you leave the dungeon and come back the water is no longer drained so you cannot softlock there. This is a change we already built into the randomizer. So nothing needs to be changed.
Palace of Darkness:
You can do a bomb jump ("hammer jump") to get to the dark maze where the big key is and thus continue, however no problem adding in another small key. However note that this small key CANNOT be in the first basement chest, or the 2 chests after you go through the east wing. This destroys the initial visit to the dungeon when you don't have hammer in order to get hookshot.
Fri 10 Feb 2017 - 20:08 by Puzzledude
This is true. I just wanted to make the dungeon as friendly as possible to not force the player to leave the entire dungeon. The other situation is that in case you get the small key and then hookshot up, you basically can skip the entire left section of the dungeon. I just made small changes to also utilize that part. But note: the gameplay is basically the same as in your stream, but in my version you actually need to visit the rooms.Swamp Palace:
If you leave the dungeon and come back the water is no longer drained so you cannot softlock there. This is a change we already built into the randomizer. So nothing needs to be changed.
Yes, I'm avare of both, however this still needs work:Palace of Darkness:
You can do a bomb jump ("hammer jump") to get to the dark maze where the big key is and thus continue, however no problem adding in another small key. However note that this small key CANNOT be in the first basement chest, or the 2 chests after you go through the east wing. This destroys the initial visit to the dungeon when you don't have hammer in order to get hookshot.
-Section A (0 keys/1 key door)= ie unchanged when no hammer
-Section B (2 keys/4 key doors)= ie when hammer
-Section C (1 key/2 key doors)
Basically the section B is the problem here. There are at least 2 scenarios which render the dungeon unsolvable:
Collect 2 keys in section B (is max) and unlock the door which leads to Helmasaur (in the dark) and the second is the door, which leads to entrance. Result is: can never reach dark maze, or the chest with another key. Have 0 keys, which are all behind locked doors.
Second "bad" scenario:
Collect 2 keys in section B (is max) and unlock the door which leads back to the entrance, second key is used correctly (path to dark maze). Collect 1 key (C section), go to Helmasaur. Again 0 keys and can not reach big key, while all the small keys are behind locked doors.
Percentage of the 2nd bad scenario is very small, however for the 1st it is quite high.
Of course you have other scenarios too: best scenario is:
collect 2 keys only and unlock the "correct" 2 doors which lead directly to big key.
In my case I had to debug this to have no theoretical bad scenarios possible:
section A is now 0/0, problematic B is now 4/3, C is 1/2, sum is 5/5.
Result is: no bad scenario possible, while the gameplay is again similar to your play on Twitch.
There is also a thing of so called "mandatory unlock". Again in my case because of the edit we now have 4/5 mandatory unlocks. All this now renders the dungeon solvable in any scenario while also ensuring most of all rooms are visited.
I still see this as a debug, but there are elements of actual editing in this. So this is thus a collaboration hack, while your original remains intact, which is essential. In the original version I can thus not regard this as debug and leave the bad scenarios and thus debug only things like those overworld guards for instance. I will also leave the second dungeon intact in your original, making it possible to thus speed-run the dungeon without ever getting to the entire left section (the original idea).
Sat 11 Feb 2017 - 12:53 by ChristosOwen
I don't fully follow what you've done but I'm sure it will make sense when I do a test playthrough. It sounds like you've made changes to prevent softlocks in both dungeons, so that's good. You're more than welcome to put those changes into the original version too if you like, but if not, that's okay too.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Sat 11 Feb 2017 - 13:13 by Puzzledude
Like said your original version is a thing. We can leave it the way you made it there (or not).ChristosOwen wrote:I don't fully follow what you've done but I'm sure it will make sense when I do a test playthrough. It sounds like you've made changes to prevent softlocks in both dungeons, so that's good. You're more than welcome to put those changes into the original version too if you like, but if not, that's okay too.
Thanks!
All together there is around 70% chance you can always solve the dungeon (dark palace), around 30% will render it unsolvable. In my version it is just 100/0.
I'm currently in Ganon tower. Here the placement of keys is ok. The only problem was, that you can get stuck in front of the door with no key, but I left this, since you have the Mirror, so the dungeon plays with no paradoxes, same for other dungeons.
Another problem I found is Tower of Hera. Falling into Ganon room actually has this dungeon definition. But you can also enter in light world. The game will not allow this, but since I know you absolutely want Moldorm after Ganon, this just needs the regular entrance and exit to Hera moved somwhere into dark world. Even only the exit is doable and it then functions as Hoolihan room. Light world entrance then goes to a trivial cave.
It is not so complex as it sound. When you have the hammer and enter dark palace (originaly level one), you can reach 4 locked doors (before unlocking any door) but you can reach only 2 keys (before unlocking any door). This simply must be changed to match (thus give +2 keys in this area) to debug and prevent any theoretical bad scenario. Once you unlock all these 4 doors, the new expanded area contains 2 more locked doors (which again need another 2 keys in this area, in your case it was 1). Afterwards all doors are unlocked, thus now the number of doors is 0 (so 0 keys in the 2nd expanded area, in your case it was 3).I don't fully follow what you've done but I'm sure it will make sense when I do a test playthrough.
Nintendo made it a lot more complex: as in their version you had further parameters (not just small keys to get a big key, but also big key to get big chest/hammer and hammer to pound) and in their case the key logic was also accurate (no bad scenarios possible). So what might look as a paradox (key after locked door, was not, since the same area also contained the Hammer).
Last edited by Puzzledude on Sat 11 Feb 2017 - 13:19; edited 1 time in total
Sat 11 Feb 2017 - 13:18 by ChristosOwen
You can enter Hera, but you cannot ascend as the Big Key is upstairs. So no need to change Hera? I expect people to enter and do tile room and find nothing (part of the troll)!
I understand what you did in PoD, makes sense!
I understand what you did in PoD, makes sense!
Sat 11 Feb 2017 - 13:29 by Puzzledude
Yes, no need to change indeed.You can enter Hera, but you cannot ascend as the Big Key is upstairs. So no need to change Hera?
You just can not enter this dungeon through the regular entrance in the light world, must be dark world (anywhere).
So the "troll" entrance and the "actual" entrance (ie Ganon fall) must be in the dark world.
You will see what I mean here:
-load the Rom, go to Ganon and drop down the hole into Hera
-go all the way down to the entrance/exit and exit
-you are in light world now (dark world music is playing)
-make one area transit (go right from Hera) to the right part of the mountain
-and you will see what happens
(See the byte which controls dark/light world is set to dark, entering Ganon means set to dark, falling to Hera: still dark, exiting Hera: still dark - but you exit in light world). Result is: game is confused: byte is still reading dark, but you exit in light). So the game will not allow entering the same dungeon from 2 worlds.
But this of course can be solved while still keeping the "troll" entrance to confuse the player, just needs to be in the dark world somewhere.
Sat 11 Feb 2017 - 13:49 by ChristosOwen
I'd prefer to leave the normal entrance to Hera alone. This is a really minor issue which doesn't actually break anything. We call that "fake dark world" and scrolling one screen away will change back the world state as you mentioned. I mostly expect people to mirror/s+q after they finish in Hera rather than leave through the bottom exit, especially as they will most likley have already searched downstairs beforehand.
Changing the entrance to Hera seems like overkill here as it's so unlikely to come up, and even if it does, it doesn't even matter.
Changing the entrance to Hera seems like overkill here as it's so unlikely to come up, and even if it does, it doesn't even matter.
Sat 11 Feb 2017 - 16:48 by Puzzledude
Ok.I'd prefer to leave the normal entrance to Hera alone.
Meanwhile I actually found another way, since Moegami wanted such a feature to be able to enter in light and enter in dark world (and vice versa). And the short ASM was written by Conn.
So basically I can leave everything the way it is and actually tell the game to load the correct world. So I've done that, but like said you won't notice anything if you save and quit (with this fix or without this fix, so I've just put in the ASM anyway, in case someone wants to for some unknown reason continue without save and quit).
Sat 11 Feb 2017 - 16:54 by ChristosOwen
Sounds perfect, thanks!
Sat 11 Feb 2017 - 21:19 by Puzzledude
Yes, this is how you do it if you are interested (simplified Conn's ASM):
hook is at 16551 for ALTTP, but in Kaizo/Japan, this is actually at 162B5:
make JSL here:
22 00 FF 0E EA= jump to 77F00 (indeed also empty space in Kaizo)
New code at 77F00 is:
64 8B 9C 0B 04, (rewrite old code overwritten because of JSL)
A5 A2, (load exit)
C9 77, (CMP to 77= Hera exit), 77 in hex is 119 in dec= room 119 is 1st Hera room
D0 03, (if not equal, branch next 3 bytes, BNE) so go to RTL
4C 0F FF, (if equal, JMP to local address FF0F= load LW code)
6B, (RTL) return and do nothing (if not equal routine)
A9 00, (load value 00, LDA= 00 is for light world)
8F CA F3 7E, (store to RAM 7EF3CA, which holds the LW/DW info)
6B, (RTL), bunny check skipped (not needed here)
Thus:
64 8B 9C 0B 04 A5 A2 C9 77 D0 03 4C 0F FF 6B A9 00 8F CA F3 7E 6B
Result is: always load LW (00) when exiting Hera, no matter the initial flag (00 or 40). Also tested in-game.
I'm actually not into ASM, but this is a short and simple enough example so I can actually track down what Conn did and adopt it.
hook is at 16551 for ALTTP, but in Kaizo/Japan, this is actually at 162B5:
make JSL here:
22 00 FF 0E EA= jump to 77F00 (indeed also empty space in Kaizo)
New code at 77F00 is:
64 8B 9C 0B 04, (rewrite old code overwritten because of JSL)
A5 A2, (load exit)
C9 77, (CMP to 77= Hera exit), 77 in hex is 119 in dec= room 119 is 1st Hera room
D0 03, (if not equal, branch next 3 bytes, BNE) so go to RTL
4C 0F FF, (if equal, JMP to local address FF0F= load LW code)
6B, (RTL) return and do nothing (if not equal routine)
A9 00, (load value 00, LDA= 00 is for light world)
8F CA F3 7E, (store to RAM 7EF3CA, which holds the LW/DW info)
6B, (RTL), bunny check skipped (not needed here)
Thus:
64 8B 9C 0B 04 A5 A2 C9 77 D0 03 4C 0F FF 6B A9 00 8F CA F3 7E 6B
Result is: always load LW (00) when exiting Hera, no matter the initial flag (00 or 40). Also tested in-game.
I'm actually not into ASM, but this is a short and simple enough example so I can actually track down what Conn did and adopt it.
Sun 12 Feb 2017 - 22:28 by Puzzledude
Ok, Christos, I've sent you the release candidate per PM, since I've just defeated Ganon (legit playthrough this time) and thus made all the changes/debugs that I came across.
I have to say the Lite version seems suitable for general public actually (still a master quest/randomizer category though).
I have to say the Lite version seems suitable for general public actually (still a master quest/randomizer category though).
Sun 12 Feb 2017 - 23:21 by ChristosOwen
That's great! Thanks a lot of your help and information. I'll do a test play as soon as I can and let you know any feedback!
Mon 13 Feb 2017 - 1:02 by Puzzledude
Yes, once I also know about any final changes you might want to make, they can be done and then we can make the final v1.0. This is then the final Rom in which we no longer do any changes, just one final playthrough before release (this is how it is usually done).
Mon 13 Feb 2017 - 1:15 by Conn
Could you post a let's play video or anything of this hack?
Mon 13 Feb 2017 - 1:49 by ChristosOwen
Yeah I can do that when I test this Conn. I'll link it when I'm done
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