Erock's Dungeon Designs 2008 - 2014

zack wrote:Hello,

I wanted to write you a quick email and thank you for showing me Gunman's Proof! I sought out the ROM and began playing it today; I've already got the first three crests. The similarities to Zelda 3 are uncanny! I don't think Nintendo created this game themselves, considering the different company names on the title screen. Maybe they relied heavily on Zelda 3 as a model for their own game?

In any case, it's a lot of fun to play. I love dodging bullets while firing at the bad guys. I've died a few times on bosses already, lol... And as I play, I'm taking snapshots left and right of all the graphics I may use in Zelda3C. I can't use *everything* I see, of course, but there's plenty of inspiration as well as straight graphics rips to be found here.

In reply to your Word doc...

The water animation in this game is incredible! Too bad Zelda 3's water is so simple. I already have my own trees and houses, as you likely know, but I can probably use those wooden boards in some other areas.

Indeed, the house interiors are just like Zelda 3. I may very well use some of these counter tops and chairs. This reminds me, I also need to look at the graphics in the SNES Harvest Moon game...

As for dungeons, Zelda 3 only allows three wall patterns -- house, brick, and cave. If I used the giant bricks in GP's first dungeon, ALL the non-cave dungeons would use this pattern. Of course, this might not be a bad thing...

Certain advanced structures, like those giant roots growing out of the floors and walls, may not be possible in Zelda 3 -- it's a very simple game, in comparison.

I have definitely imagined Link in a rail car mine, comparing it to the Somaria platforms in Turtle Rock. I think those awesome tracks, again, may be beyond the scope of Zelda 3's object abilities. We'll see!

Yes, there will be an instruction manual, just as there is for ZeldaC. I'm very picky about drawings and art styles, but I'd love to see anything you submit!

The dam is certainly a difficult task, but don't worry about it -- I was just throwing it out there in case you had ideas. When I get enough time I'm going to apply some *real* patterns and a better palette; it will look a lot better soon.

Thanks again for writing! I'm off to play some more GP!

Zack wrote:Howdy! So, yer not only a fan of Gunman's Proof, y'also live in Texas. Ah didn't realize yer an aw-thentic cowboy! Glad ya survived the tor-nado -- I hear 'twas a nasty one.

So. Parallel Worlds. I've avoided this hack because (a) I know how frustrating it is to play and (b) I don't want to find myself using their ideas. (Sure, I may come up with the same ideas, but that's by my merit; no accusations to the contrary will inflict any guilt.)

So, even though I've heard lots of feedback on that game, it's really good to receive a review -- with screenshots, no less!

As far as things being disorganized, I plan to do this on purpose. Yes, you read that correctly. I like the ideas of Link walking through walls or finding random things out of place. Zelda 2 has a false wall in one of its palaces, and I've been very anxious to make such a passage in Zelda 3. As for randomness, I like to present the unexpected, both indoors and out.

The difference, of course, is that these things will ultimately make sense. There will be a clue somewhere that says to look for a fake wall in a certain dungeon. If a town has been attacked, it will make sense for tables and chairs to be pushed up against walls. I totally dislike the odd overlapping of ice-cube paths -- what, do we have some half-cubes here?? lol And I agree, the walls are ugly in pic B.

I've seen some crazy boss glitches in Zelda 3 before; I can only hope that I bug-test enough to catch all such craziness.

The slowly-refilling magic meter is, indeed, a terrible idea for a game played on an emulator. Who in their right mind could resist holding down fast-forward in a safe place, no matter how much a cheater they aren't? I do kind of like the fact that it appears horizontally, hehe...

I'll bet they disabled maps in dungeons so they wouldn't have to create new ones. That, or they just wanted the make the game harder. I don't mind drawing maps as I play a game (I drew my own in GP's ghost town, btw, because of overlapping paths) but I'll still create new ones in Zelda3C.

In Zelda Challenge ~ Outlands, I reconfigured the gambling game to simply place free bombs in the center of the room. I couldn't stand the idea of people maxing out their money via save-states. Free bombs are cool because you can only get them if you find the hidden cave, and then only while you're there. Zelda3C will not have a gambling game. Hopefully I can find another use for that sprite, as in ZeldaC.

I'm amazed that they were able to create a "NWSW" style puzzle in a forest. If I end up able to create such a place, I will, but like in Zelda 1, I'll make sure there's a helpful villager who knows the combination.

I agree that PW's mountains and trees look incredible. I personally like my trees better, but I wish I had those mountain edges! I'm not fond of GP's mountains; I don't have anything to use just yet. I don't want to change Link's graphics, although I did change his pink hair to brown. I have so many shield graphics, as you know, it was hard to decide my favorites. I wish Zelda3C could allow 9999 rupees; I need to ask about this. While location labels are nice, they don't occur in real life; I'm pretty happy with the signs I have posted everywhere that name places. Although I agree that Zelda3C will be better, it's true that PW does offer some great things.

The bushes in HM are perfect, but I don't know how they were able to use them. Zelda 3 is programmed to have symmetrical bushes and rocks. It's a hurdle I need to overcome! I'll probably stick with the Zelda 3 chickens, lol...

Dark Prophecy is created by MathOnNapkins and his friends. He's a brilliant ASM hacker who is creating a new Zelda 3 editor called Black Magic. I talk to him occasionally about Zelda 3 hacking as well as DP and BM. I'm not sure what I'm allowed to say about the game, and what's confidential, but I'm looking forward to playing it! BM will probably be easier to use than Hyrule Magic, but it won't support all the same features. Further, a ROM modified by BM can't be read by HM; I'll have to be careful about when I make the switch.

Some of your dungeon ideas I've already thought of, but there are some I haven't come up with. Maximizing the use of items is one of my goals; I have entire mazes filled with those bumpers, with the cape required to progress. It never occurred to me to hide star tiles under them -- that's brilliant!

Also very clever is your idea to block "ice aliens" with the peg switches in areas prior to finding the fire rod. I can take it a step further and have multiple aliens coming at you, with both peg colors involved. Thank you so much!!

While I've thought of forcing Link to use his mirror shield against lasers, I didn't think about forcing the first shield against arrows. This will be great. Adding the sliding spike block at the end was a nice touch.

I've definitely already thought of the bomber-slimes -- you're the first person, though, to suggest it to me. I don't know if their bombs will affect switches -- I've always meant to try this out. I'll let you know when I've tested it. I long to have rooms that change on their own instead of just when Link throws a switch. As for Link getting trapped, it's nothing the mirror can't bail him out of, provided he has it.

Gunman's Proof -- I haven't started the mine, yet; it's my next destination. I've had to put the game aside for now to focus on Zelda3C. Don't worry, I know my priorities, which is why the game's not done yet, lol. I'm glad you won't forget yours either -- school is important! If you create things in HM, you can send me the edited ROM(s) in .zip files. Just make sure it's fast and easy to reach the area(s) you've edited. You could also include a .srm file and/or a save-state file. I prefer to use ZSNES, but I also have SNES9X.

Well, I've gotta get ready and go to the state fair! Maybe there will be some inspiration there! 'Til next time!

erock wrote:Hi Zack I came across your website for your Zelda 3 Hack, Quest for Calatia and I’m interested in collaborating with you and your team. I am completely new to ROM hacking but very interested. I am familiar with the romhacking.net website and I’ve been reading a lot about hacking lately but probably the best way for me to help you is with drawing sprites. I’m a pretty good artist I just need to know what colors I can use for sprites because I know the SNES only has so many colors available. Also if I draw some sprites what type of file format should they been in? Anyway I would like to definitely team up with you because I’m sure I can do something to help. Do you have Microsoft word on your computer? Because I want to e-mail you a word document with more detailed information I want to talk with you about. Anyway, best wishes on your Zelda 3 hack and maybe I could help you and contribute something to it! Thank you for your time. – Eric

erock wrote:Ok, Zack I want you to look at the picture I’ve send you with this e-mail. The image (a) is yours and the image (b) is my modified version of yours. Look at the tower in (b) with the blue top roof, its skinnier at the bottom and wider at the top. I put it into perspective and I think it gives the castle a substantial improvement! Notice how the blue top is larger and how the lower window is smaller then the top window. I also changed the blue and yellow banner, can you tell? Of course image (b) wouldn’t be the actual image in the game but you can use it as a template to improve the castle or I might be able to redraw your tower, blue banner and gate to look like the ones in image (b). What do you think?

Erock wrote:Hi Zack, it’s me erockbrox. Ok, well I wanted to show you some videos of the puzzles that I’ve been working on for Zelda 3C. I hope you like them.



Video 1. This is an idea I’ve had for a long time but haven’t been able to create in Hyrule Magic until just recently. The goal is to hit the peg switch but as you can see there is a huge black bottomless pit separating Link from it. The boomerang will not work and there are no invisible blocks to step on. Believe it or not you can set the switch off and you have to do it with the cane of somaria. An order to hit the switch you must create a red brick with the cane of somaria then use your boots to dash into the brick. The brick will then be launched to the other side of the room. While the brick is in “midair” you have to destroy it so that the fireball will hit the peg switch and the blue/orange pegs can be used to block something important like the big chest. In the video it looks easy but it is actually quite difficult. You have to kick it right between the gap of the high walls like a football field goal. If it’s too high or too low it will not work and if you don’t destroy the brick in “midair” it will fall into the black pit. So your timing is everything and it has to be right on the mark. This design is very tricky to figure out if no clues are given.







Video 3. I really like this one. It requires the use of two items. The door at the top is sealed shut and you have to have something pressing down on the switch an order for it to open. The only problem is that you have no way of getting to the switch to stand on it. Those statues will not move. The only other option you have is to create a brick with the cane of somaria and throw it onto the switch. The only problem is that there is a blue bumper right in your way so what do you do? First you create a red brick with the cane then use the cape to make yourself invisible. Then pick up the brick and walk under the bumper. Now you have to be at the perfect distance away from the switch and you throw the brick and hope that it lands right on the switch. If your aiming is really good the brick will land on the switch and the door will open. Pretty sweet.





Video 4. This idea is pretty neat. When you first encounter the beamos (eye laser things) you think that it is blocking your path, which it is. It really makes the player think about it for a second. “How can I get past that?” Well there are two ways. You can either just walk into the beamos and you will take life damage during that time you will be invincible for a few seconds and during that time you will be able to walk past the beamos. The second will be to use the cane or the cape. Either way it makes the player think and then they will have to make a choice. Do I want to take away some life or magic?





Alright well I hope you enjoy the videos.

erock wrote:Hi, Zack! It’s me your wonderful Zelda3C partner and friend Eric. How are things going? Hope you had a wonderful Christmas and New Year. Thank you so much for e-mailing me back it’s really good to hear from you. I have been working pretty hard coming up some Zelda 3 puzzles as you will see in the other e-mails I’ve sent you. I figured out that the best way for me to communicate ideas to you is by making videos of them on my camera and sending them to you by e-mail. In total I’ve sent you about 20 videos and some of these are so crazy that I don’t even think I could have figured these out if I was playing a Zelda3 game with them in it. Yes, I am the one making the videos and narrating in them. You will not find these on the internet because I’ve only sent them to you. I try to make them kind of entertaining but the puzzle ideas are the main purpose. If you have any questions regarding any of the designs let me know and I will try my best to explain them more fully.

zack wrote:Hey again! I'm looking forward to these videos. I can't watch 'em at work because I want to organize ideas on my laptop as I see them. Looks like I have quite the weekend project ahead of me...

Erockbrox wrote:02-14-09
I wonder if the same effect can be achieved with pushable blocks too? Push a block and reveal a warp?

Zack wrote:Hi Erock!

You've sent so many emails that I had to create a folder just for you! It contains 32 messages. I sorted by date and started back at the beginning, reading the original content and documenting them in Excel. At this moment, I have a sheet for graphics and a sheet for puzzles.

On the graphics sheet, I've copied over the two images showcasing all the different treasure chests. It also contains the links regarding the Stone Tablet games.

On the puzzles sheet, I've taken all the images and their descriptions, so they're available in one place instead of several word docs. Eventually I will have this sheet broken into subsections, categorized by the item(s) required to complete them. I've been meaning to create such a sheet anyway, since I have hundreds of puzzles written on napkins and post-it notes that must be organized and documented.

I've started writing an email early because there's already something I must reply to. I hadn't yet read the 4th word doc, written back in October! That was five months ago! (whew!) So in this message, I'll respond to its contents.

I'll definitely avoid PW for the time being. Actually, I've been playing a hack of Zelda 2 lately called "Journey of a Day." It has many evil, frustrating secrets, like false walls, mountains you can walk over, invisible towns, etc. This assures me that I won't have the patience to figure out PW and all its strangeness.

Also like PW, JoaD is extremely hard, designed to make you depend on your save-state button. I'm really good at Zelda 2, which is already a hard game, but this hack makes things ridiculous. I'm glad there are YouTube videos and others willing to play on my behalf. And yes, I'd hate to be influenced while still designing my own game.

It's great to hear that the bomber-slimes will set off the peg switches! Even if it's only for a brief moment, it still creates the element desired.

The notes you've given on the star switch under the blue bumper are very interesting. I'll try to use this technique without making the bumper look too suspicious.

I had no idea you could use the hookshot to pass through a bumper! This is one of my favorite discoveries, yet! I'm really glad you pointed this out. Not only does it give the hookshot a new purpose, it creates one-way routes when there's nothing to hookshot back to. There could be several bumpers in a room and Link will have to choose which route to commit to. The cape will become a valuable item to acquire within such a dungeon.

The "statue through the bumper" idea is great, too. I was really hoping that the hookshot would work, though. Are you sure you can't hookshot to a movable statue? I have many plans that require moving a statue into place and then using the hookshot after an event takes place elsewhere in the room...

It's a shame that peg switches don't ride conveyor belts, but since they're sprites, there's a good chance I can get Reshaper256 to hack this in. He's becoming an expert on sprite behavior and has even created his own monsters, as you likely know. I wonder what other sprites should be hacked to respond to conveyor belts? I knew about the ones you've listed, as they're featured in the original game. (I've practically memorized Zelda 3, hehe) Oh, and movable states are affected, although the conveyors move them much faster than Link can.

The bomb trick sucks, lol -- Link should never be forced to take damage to complete his quest. (This also holds true, IMO, for spike paths, etc) This trick wasn't intended to be used in Ganon's Tower! Instead, Link is supposed to stand facing a large rail, use the dash boots, and bounce backward across that pit. And now I've just read that you mention this trick, too. I use the dash boots trick extensively in Zelda3C, but will try to make sure the bomb trick is never an option.

I like the example you provided for crashing backwards to the big chest. Assuming the chest is still unopened, it will be great for the player to find a chest already surrounded by pits, perhaps "years" after the tiles had fallen. Of course, more mole-pegs will be needed to prevent using the hookshot from the back.

Hahahah!! I actually giggled when I saw the bumper by the pit. "He really likes those bumpers!" While I may not hide a star switch under such a bumper, it will be great to force the player to use the cape while crashing backwards.

And now for your crazy idea ***(censored content to be revealed later)***

Right now I'll stay focused and read your next email. This is, after all, only the 7th of 32!

Thanks for sending all these great ideas, so far, and sorry for not being in touch. I'm already excited about the game all over again!

Erock & Zack wrote:"Hi Zack, it’s me erockbrox. Ok, well I wanted to show you some videos of the puzzles that I’ve been working on for Zelda 3C. I hope you like them"

Yay, videos! I was just wishing for one while reading about the controversial ***censored content to be revealed later*** puzzle...

"Video 1. ...you can set the switch off and you have to do it with the cane of somaria. You have to kick it right between the gap of the high walls like a football field goal."

The fact that you can kick it is, in itself, amazing. But the fact that you can kick it farther than you can throw it is groundbreaking! Very awesome puzzle.

"Video 3. I really like this one. It requires the use of two items..."

That one's cool, too. I hadn't thought about the Somarian block working while you're invisible. The video doesn't show the bottom part of the screen very well; I was confused by what I'm hoping is just carpet south of the bumper.

"Video 4. ...The second will be to use the cane or the cape. Either way it makes the player think and then they will have to make a choice. Do I want to take away some life or magic?"

Another fantastic idea! It's a sprite, so of course you can walk past it, but I tend to think of it as an object you can't ever cross. I won't use this one until after the player can be invincible, though, because otherwise the player will take damage early rather than return with the solution.

"Alright well I hope you enjoy the videos and I have to ask you a question. Zack (Game Makr24) can I, Eric also know as erockbrox be officially part of the Zelda3 Quest for Calatia team? Please! Until next time thanks again."

I can't remember if I already said yes to this in a different email, but yes, you've earned it! I noticed the banner you've created for the message boards that already labels you as such, lol...

Thanks for these insightful videos and see you next reply.

Zack wrote:Well, this video finishes off November, and my viewing for now. I was hoping to at least make it to 2009, but I'm out of time. At least I've put a dent into all the great ideas you've come up with!

I already thought of the "bomb the bushes" idea, as it's used in Link's Awakening. In that puzzle, you want to jump over a pit with the feather but must first bomb the bushes.

It's driving me nuts that there's so many more videos and emails, just waiting for me. I've gotta log back in soon. And by the way, you can make videos with ZSNES, which would be much clearer, but it would defeat your ability to narrate. Just letting you know.

I imagined you would want to see the Excel file I've been putting together. It's nowhere near complete, but I've attached it. Please don't add to it and send it back, or I'll have to deal with multiple copies.

Thanks for all the effort and creativity! Talk to you again soon!

Erock and Zack wrote:“I had no idea you could use the hookshot to pass through a bumper!”
Neither did I. I only discovered it by playing around with the game and testing out how different items interact with different objects. And yes its one of my favorite discoveries too.
“Are you sure you can't hookshot to a movable statue?”
As far as I know movable statues are not hookshot compatible on the other hand the non-movable statues are hookshot compatible.
“I have many plans that require moving a statue into place and then using the hookshot after an event takes place elsewhere in the room... “
I know this sounds like it would work but the hookshot doesn’t catch onto the movable statues. As far as I know this will require some ASM.
“The bomb trick sucks, lol -- Link should never be forced to take damage to complete his quest.”
I agree, I don’t think Link should have to take damage to get across a gap either. I’ve never liked the bomb trick and it’s really hard to get it to work right. There are times in Parallel Worlds where you have to do it 5 times in a row and it’s not fun.
“but will try to make sure the bomb trick is never an option.”

Zack wrote:So, you can trap yourself in a bubble for as long as you want, eh? The things Nintendo never thought of... But what if you run out of magic before you're positioned just right? Is it possible to be trapped in there forever? Or could the mirror set you free?

Erock wrote:To answer your questions I had to test them out so here we go. Yes you can trap yourself inside the bumper for as long as you want. One thing to remember if you are going to use this idea is to make sure that the bumper is surrounded by moles not blocks. If the bumper is surrounded by blocks or anything else besides the moles you will get stuck for sure! If the magic runs out but you’re not positioned just right normally everything will be ok and it will still work but very rarely you can still get stuck. This is why I made an improved version of this idea on a later video where you use the hookshot to cross a gap then get stuck. This new and improved idea is the better one to choose from so check out that video and use that design if you like the idea. Can you get trapped in there forever? Well in a worst case situation you can always “pause” the game and select the save and quit option. Could the mirror set you free? Unfortunately no, the only things that will set you free are the hammer or pressing select and by choosing save and quit.

Erock wrote:Here is my attempt to make the puzzle in video 6 work. My new design works but it is not perfect. I’m handing this one to you if you want to try and improve on it. Maybe you could make it better? I really don’t know on this one it’s up to you if you want it in the game or not since it doesn’t work exactly how I want it to. I’m going to send you another video showing its flaws.