Erock's Dungeon Designs 2008 - 2014

zack wrote:Hi Erock!

I decided to go ahead and open your email, taking the risk that it might be related to a previous message.  Usually I move your messages into my Erock folder so they can all be processed at once, but we've seen how effective that is.  Now that I've finished Truce Dam, I can get caught up on all your ideas and suggestions.

You're right, the mountain graphics are only so-so in this game.  It kind of looks like leaves are carved into them.  We were better off with Gunman's Proof mountains, but even those aren't as nice as the LTTP originals.  I may have to draw some from scratch, or have one of the graphics artists take a pick-axe to it.

What is this game, by the way?  Is it an RPG, or action like Zelda?  Has it been translated?  I've never heard of this one.

erock wrote:Ok Zack! I’ve have been eager to make some real progress with this game. All semester long I’ve been tied up with school but I’ll have off for the winter holiday so I really want to take advantage of this free time and get something done. I’m requesting for you to give me an assignment. Just give me some things to work on, please! I am very passionate about this game and I want to help you out. It could a bunch of small things to do or maybe even a checklist. For instance:



Are there any town people, enemies, bosses, objects or anything that need to be drawn?



I would like to compose some music but I don’t know how. If you could tell me how to compose music or give me the e-mail addresses of the Zelda3C musicians I could ask them. Of course I’m not asking you how to write music but to actually work the program so I can write the music. And if I do write music I need to know what type of file format I need to submit it in.



I would like to draw instruction book artwork or just Zelda3C artwork in general for the website but I don’t know really what Link looks like for instance I don’t know what type of graphics are on his shield. I actually would like to digitally paint a picture of the entire over world but I’ll have to wait for the over world to be completed first. The drawings that I would like to do may have to come last when all of the designs are completely finalized.



When the game is finished I want to create some promotional videos and post them on youtube showing clips of the game. Of course this will happen at the very end but I really want to do it. I really want to advertise it and make it well known so that when it comes out everyone will know about it.


Also when the game is finished but before it is released I want to be a beta tester and check out the game to make sure everything is working right. Make sure Link cannot get trapped anywhere he is not supposed to be. I want to double check everything so that this game will be great!



I know you are using excel to create the over world. Is there anyway I could use excel to arrange graphics in the right place and then submit it to you so that you can import them into the game.



Is there anything that you would like for me to look at an order for you to get feedback on? There are many things that you have already done that I would actually like to complement you on. Oh, by the way, have you check out all of the videos that I’ve sent to you. I believe there are still many videos, which I have not received feedback on and I think some of them are well worth the time to look at. Like there is this one where Link can hookshot from one somarian block platform to another somarian block platform, it’s pretty epic.



I’m going to give you my cell phone number because it may be easier for you to call me and talk than to write me an e-mail. I would really like just to talk about the game and what your needs are because if you don’t tell me your needs I wont be able to accomplish anything and you know that I can accomplish things, you just have to give me a chance.

zack wrote:Hello, Erock!

First, let me say that my tendency to not respond stems from needing to evaluate and document the videos you send. I'm pretty good at replying to standard emails. There's no way I'd wait until December 9th to write back! lol

Next, I'll tell you that right after I completed Truce Dam (like, the NEXT day), our basement flooded, ruining lots of stuff and worsening a mold problem we weren't aware we had. I think this was a month ago, but recovery is still taking place because I only have weekends to do anything. Nothing Zelda3C related was harmed, luckily -- all my notebooks were high and dry. However, I've spent all my free time moving around furniture, salvaging items, and throwing a lot of things away. I know I should've posted this on my diary page, but, lame as it sounds, I only upload new HTML pages with my old computer, which is currently unusable. Even lamer, I've been finding it impossible to keep up with my password to the Zelda3C forum. At least this will explain my lack of communication.

On to your email. Most of the things you're anxious to help me with are naturally based on a near-finished game. I don't know if I need new townspeople or bosses because I don't know for sure whether Reshaper256 will be able to code these things. (There are very few villagers in Zelda 3 and writing new bosses is VERY advanced.) Drawing new objects isn't going to take very long and can be done while I'm in the mindset of creating dungeons. (The graphics can't be tested very well unless I'm putting them in the actual, new dungeons.)

I know nothing about Hyrule Magic's music editor. The two musicians I've talked to each have their own vision of the game's soundtrack; as of yet, they don't really share ideas even with each other. Music is a whole other realm that I choose not to be distracted with yet -- there are many things in the game I can't focus on if I want to make progress myself. Most of the needed songs are decided, but their styles and the room remaining in the ROM remain to be known.

You are very welcome to draw artwork for the game's manual. A few others have also requested this honor; I want to take the best pieces from everything people submit. The art style should match that of the Zelda 2 booklet -- cartoon-based, yet serious. Link should look like the Link presented here, except he's 4 years older. (16 in Zelda 2, 20 in Zelda3C) He will be meeting his younger self when he goes back in time 10 years. There's a lot more you will need to know about the game's opening, including the graphics for Epoch Tower and the sorceress' appearance, but I'm not ready to reveal these yet. And of course, half of Calatia will be shrouded in secrecy for as long as possible.

I will appreciate the promo videos you plan to make on YouTube. When that time comes, I'll outline what content should be displayed, and which things are spoilers.

You've long been chosen as one of the game's beta testers. In fact, other than fellow programmers, your may be the most valuable input! It's good to have someone who has studied the game's ins and outs who is ready to test every nook and cranny...

The program I use in Excel for overworld design is not easy to use -- in fact, it's very taxing and requires keeping up with thousands of block numbers. (resource management) There's so much more involved than just arranging graphics on the screen -- I have to set palettes, layering (in-front or behind Link), tile properties, flipping tile images across X & Y axis as needed... I'm sure you've read the details of these perfectionist struggles in my diary. Even if I trained someone to use my program, I would never feel confident enough to let someone create new buildings and other overworld objects. It's the hardest part of developing this game and requires extreme attention to many details.

As far as showing you things I've done for feedback -- lately I've been getting a few hours in, here and there, on the cliffs surrounding the dam. They have been tough because Link likes to jump off the edge and get stuck in the steep, 7-story high cliff to the west of him. In fact, I ultimately had to put up a fence because the ridges that prevent jumping off just weren't working out here. I know it looks good, but I'll still post some screenshots whenever I get back into using my "website computer".

I haven't had time to look at the latest promising videos you've sent. (If I had, you would be the first to know.) Even though they're extremely valuable insight, most of them are dungeon-related, which in my mind is a different project from the overworld I'm struggling with. They're fun and inspiring to watch, but I can't jump up and start implementing them yet, either.

I look forward to calling you sometime on your cell. It may happen when you least expect it. Won't you be surprised? I wish I had more to request, as far as help, but no one can help me with what I'm focused on, and I don't yet have the confirmation of new coding to focus on what I'll some day need help with. For now, show me your artistic skills and draw Link in front of a huge, indoor portal that will carry him back in time...

erock and zack wrote:(Black: Eric)
(Purple: Zack)

Hey Zack, Sorry I haven’t responded to your last e-mail yet. I’ve crazy busy with school recently due to finals. I just finished this final report for one of my classes that was worth 30% of my final grade. The night before it was due I stayed up all night working on it with no sleep, man that’s nuts. But anyways on to your e-mail.


“I don't know if I need new townspeople or bosses because I don't know for sure whether Reshaper256 will be able to code these things.

Yeah, I talked with Jonathan and he said that he is busy with teaching at the moment. I’ll e-mail him again to see what he’s up to over the winter break. He told me that he was working on a GUI program, which lets you create custom enemies in a time reasonable manor but he hasn’t finished it yet due to his job.

I guess the question I was really asking you in my original e-mail was: What graphics do you need drawn?

I was actually ready for you to give me a list with hundreds of sprites and objects that need to be created or redesigned. I know this is your game but I think that most of the original graphics should be changed because it will make the game fresh and exciting. I’m sure there are plenty of things that need to be drawn, so please give me a list and I’ll see what I can do.




I wanted you to look at the picture above. I send it in an e-mail to you a long time ago but I don’t know if you have ever viewed it before. Look at that bush graphic I have the red arrow pointing to. The bush graphic is PERFECT! I looked through tons of games looking for good graphics and I found this one from a BGA bomberman game. I think that this bush graphic is just the thing for Zelda3C but you will have to figure out how to overcome the y-flip programming of the normal bushes. I think it would be well worth getting this graphic in the game. What is your opinion about it?

 (There are very few villagers in Zelda 3 and writing new bosses is VERY advanced.)

Well even if custom bosses is advanced, I believe that we should really try to have them in the game. When you fight the original bosses over and over it gets boring and everyone who has played Zelda3alttp knows exactly what each bosses does and how to attack them. What we could do is change the boss graphics and mix up original code so that the boss battles would appear to be completely new.

And speaking of coding things, I got to tell you something REALLY important. Ok, I don’t know how to code but one of my new friends, Matt is an expert on computer languages and he has worked with programming on the NES. I told him that I wanted to code a custom weapon in Zelda3, remember that BALL and CHAIN weapon idea I had, well I’ve asked him to try and see if he can code that in! I told him that I’d pay him for it and I gave him $25, I don’t know if that’s too much or too little but we can’t start working on it until the final exams are over. I’m also going to see if he can teach me how to code, like tutor me in ASM, but we are not that far into it yet and have to wait till the winter break. I gave Matt the Zelda3 rom and all the information documents about Zelda3 from romhacking.net to see if it would be an easy project or not and this is what he e-mailed me back with.

Matt:

“Thanks. I looked through the documentation a little bit, but didn't find Link's draw states or draw methods. It somewhat looks like Link only has sword attack animation 5 frames long though. If there is enough room in the ROM, an extra section to the draw method for Link could be added to check equipped weapons before actually drawing to determine which sprite to draw. It does not appear the SNES has the same sprite limitation the NES had, but the 6507 only had 8K of memory compared to 65816's 16 MB of addressable memory space.”




Remember weapon “d” well, it just might become reality. We will have to wait and see though.


If Matt and I can code the custom ball and chain weapon I will be very happy but it’s a project in the works. But if we can code the new weapon I need to know a few things. Like for instance:

1. How do I submit code to you, like what format does it need to be in?
2. If we can code the new weapon I want it to be available on the select menu screen. That means that the screen may have to be modified to add in the new space for the new weapon but I don’t know if Zelda3C will use the same menu screen as Zelda3alttp. We probably need to talk about this part together in-depth.
3. If we code in the custom weapon into an original Zelda3alttp rom that would be great but how would we get all of that code into your rom, the Zelda3C one

Oh, I got to tell you. The ball and chain weapon when used by the bad guys (morringstars) does NOT affect the peg switches. This may be a good thing because the ball and chain weapon goes through objects and stretches fall out meaning that Link could hit the peg switch from pretty much anywhere.

If I can learn how to code, I will code custom bosses no matter how advanced it is.

Drawing new objects isn't going to take very long and can be done while I'm in the mindset of creating dungeons.  (The graphics can't be tested very well unless I'm putting them in the actual, new dungeons.)”

Do you know if we are going to be able to import those dungeon graphics from Gunman’s Proof? I really want to be able to have more than just 3 wall patterns for interior wall graphics. I would like each dungeon to have its own unique wall patterns. What’s the status on that one?

I know nothing about Hyrule Magic's music editor. The two musicians I've talked to each have their own vision of the game's soundtrack; as of yet, they don't really share ideas even with each other.  Music is a whole other realm that I choose not to be distracted with yet -- there are many things in the game I can't focus on if I want to make progress myself.  Most of the needed songs are decided, but their styles and the room remaining in the ROM remain to be known.

I would at least like to make one song for the game if possible. For Zelda3C, try to get most if not all of the original music changed. New music adds a lot to a game.

The program I use in Excel for overworld design is not easy to use -- in fact, it's very taxing and requires keeping up with thousands of block numbers.  (resource management)  There's so much more involved than just arranging graphics on the screen -- I have to set palettes, layering (in-front or behind Link), tile properties, flipping tile images across X & Y axis as needed...  I'm sure you've read the details of these perfectionist struggles in my diary.  Even if I trained someone to use my program, I would never feel confident enough to let someone create new buildings and other overworld objects.  It's the hardest part of developing this game and requires extreme attention to many details.

I’m getting a degree in mathematics so I’m pretty good with logic and I can pay attention to details very well. If you ever teach me how to use your program I will try my hardest to make sure that every last detail was done correctly. Also if I can create things in your program the progress of the game would speed up rapidly.

I haven't had time to look at the latest promising videos you've sent.  (If I had, you would be the first to know.)  Even though they're extremely valuable insight, most of them are dungeon-related, which in my mind is a different project from the overworld I'm struggling with.  They're fun and inspiring to watch, but I can't jump up and start implementing them yet, either.

Well if your wondering why I haven’t sent you any new Zelda3C videos, it is because I camera broke! But ironically after my camera broke I haven’t had any new puzzle ideas.

It is totally ok with me that you haven’t check out the more recent videos that I’ve sent you. I totally understand that it is like a completely different project than what your working on right now. The overworld, dungeons, bosses, music and graphics are each like a their own little project and even though they are all connected, working on them is so detailed, that its like each one is a whole different world in its own right.

Also I understand that not all my ideas might be in the final game. I just try and present every idea I’ve ever had to you but the only ideas that should make it into the final game are the ones that make the game actually better. If one of my ideas improves Zelda3C and makes the game more fun than great and even if I have a great idea but it does not fit well into Zelda3C than the idea should be discarded since it does not benefit the game. I know sometimes I’m a little impatient about getting feedback but it’s hard for me to wait so long. As long as you eventually see them I’ll be satisfied. I do want to say THANK YOU for viewing and giving feedback on the older videos. I really appreciate that. I am also honored that you spend so much time documenting those ideas down in Excel. That takes a lot of time and hard work and to know that those are my ideas make me feel happy.

If you could also give me, when you get a chance the number of the last Zelda video that I’ve sent you so that I will no longer have to name the videos:

Super cool Zelda
Awesome neat puzzle
Cool cool watch

And instead name then with your convention as:

Zelda Video 51
Zelda Video 52
Zelda Video 53

Your way of naming them is much better than mine. But you don’t have to worry about it now only when you get the chance.

I look forward to calling you sometime on your cell.  It may happen when you least expect it.  Won't you be surprised?    I wish I had more to request, as far as help, but no one can help me with what I'm focused on, and I don't yet have the confirmation of new coding to focus on what I'll some day need help with.

I look very forward to getting a call from you. I’m very serious about this project and care about the game. Talking with you would be really cool and inspiring.


For now, show me your artistic skills and draw Link in front of a huge, indoor portal that will carry him back in time...

This may sound like a bummer to you but its kind of a long story, here is the short version.

1. I love drawing a creating artwork
2. I have created artwork on my computer every year since 2003 until 2009
3. I have not created any artwork this year primarily due to school and not having enough time
4. In 2009 I got this spyware program download onto my computer called “spyware protect” and I’m a safe internet searcher
5. To try and get rid of the spyware an effort was made to reformat my computer
6. My computer got fixed but now my two art programs photoshop 7 and painter corel do not work and I can’t use them
7. I only have photoshop elements but its not as good
8. I can use photoshop 7 though but I’ll have to go up to my school and draw it there.
9. I may try and draw it at school but it’s hard to get into my artistic zone there. I have to be in a quite place with no distractions.
10. I’ll see what I can do but I can make any promises.

Can you please give me another assignment that applies directly to the game?

Anyways thank for your time and I’ll talk to you later.

Erock wrote:Ok Zack. My final exams are over and I talked with Matt, my programming friend. Sometime next week I’m going over to his house and we are going to see if can code that ball and chain weapon into the game. If we can do it would you be willing to put it into Zelda3C or is there a better ASM project that we should be working on? If you have something that is important that you want us to code, let me know because we need something to think about and to work with. I’m going over to his house to hopefully learn some ASM and to make an accomplishment by coding something into the game. I don’t even care if Matt and I code something really simple, as long as we code something I’m going to feel really proud of it. After Matt and I get together I’ll tell you all about it.





So basically, if you want something coded into the game, tell me about it so Matt and I can try and figure it out and make it work.

zack wrote:The Ball & Chain weapon sounds awesome, though we'll also need some code that makes it available in the menu. We'll also need an additional treasure chest entry or sprite that appears when a boss is defeated in order for Link to acquire it. It should be about as powerful as the final sword, but it should take time to get spinning before it can be used. In other words, it should be slow so that the sword is still sometimes the better option.

As for other ASM ideas, one that I've thought about for years is disabling dropped heart containers from bosses. If bosses no longer drop hearts, it greatly increases the number of heart pieces I can hide. The boss could drop other things, such as several red rupees or a trio of fairies.

The last idea you could play with is getting Link's entire body to appear when the game first starts. Right now, if I make the blanket invisible by erasing its graphics, all you see is Link's head and some fingers. To remedy this, I've thought of placing Link on the south edge of a pit, so that he's "hanging there" and about to pull himself out. It might be great if he were simply standing in place as the game's opening messages begin.

There are other, much larger ASM hacks in the game -- some which are completed, others in progress, but I gave you some which seem like they might be simple to get started with. I know absolutely nothing about the complexity nor details of these things, otherwise I'd give you some pointers regarding these challenges. If you think of any cool ideas of your own, go ahead and try them -- even if I can't use them, they would still be good practice! Have fun!

Erock wrote:Hi Zack. This is Eric. Sorry I haven’t e-mailed you back lately I hope you had a great Christmas. I did meet up with my programming friend, Matt, but I was so upset about what happened that I haven’t wanted to talk about it until now. So this is how it went. The reason why I contacted Matt was because pretty much everyone in the computer science department at my school said that he would be best suited for helping out with rom hacking. I even gave him 25 dollars just to let him know that I’m serious and that I want actual programming results. I had to wait until school was out so we could both have some free time to work on those ASM hacks. So when I finally came to his house we did talk about rom hacking a lot but he often got side tracked and spent long periods of time rambling about other non-hacking related subjects. He looked through MathOnNapkin’s Zelda3 documents and talked about what some assembly codes were used for. He does know some assembly. Oh by the way he joined the message board, his name is crazysix. We decided that the custom weapon idea would be pretty advanced to start out with so we decided to try and disable the hearts that the bosses would drop as our first goal. I showed him this webpage, http://web2.wku.edu/~james.martin2/resh/z3data.html and apparently it tells you what code to type in to disable the hearts. We tried to change the rom but apparently we couldn’t find the right address, there is a post by him on the message board explaining this. Euclid then noted that the rom we were using was headered, I guess a headered rom has different addresses than a non-headered one. Anyways we then tried to find the address in a headered version of the rom and we found it but then when we tried to change D0 04 to EA EA the code would not overwrite in a nice way but then shifted everything down and then all the code looked really messed up. I intended on posting a screen shot showing our attempt but I actually got discouraged and was very frustrated because of our lack of progress. Overall I paid someone 25 dollars and did not get the results that I expected. Matt was supposed to be my new good friend that could really help me to understand how to rom hack and instead it ended up turning out to be a very disappointing experience. I mean Matt is supposed to be this expert computer programmer, he is really smart and all but he didn’t really seem interested in the project and I think after he started reading all the Zelda 3 documents that I gave him, he realized that it was probably more work than he expected. I thought Matt was going to be this hero and that he would be able to code anything but instead he turned out to be really lazy and didn’t really care. He didn’t even give me my money back or say that he was sorry.



All I have to say is this Zack.



I really care about the Quest for Calatia project. I want to make this game great! I try to do as much as I can to contribute to the game but I’m not always successful. I have read many ASM documents out there on the web but for some reason I have not been able to get it down yet. I want to be an active contributor for the game but I really don’t know what I can do.



I e-mailed Jonathan and gave him my cell phone number. I said that if he has some free time that I’ll be available to talk with and discuss the project but I haven’t heard from him yet.



I just want you to know that if I could code I would be working on custom enemies and custom bosses around the clock. I don’t care if it takes me 60 hours to program a single boss, I’d do it if I had the knowledge. The problem is, is that I don’t know how to code a custom boss so its very hard for me accomplish that type of goal. I just wish I knew how to do this stuff. Well anyways thanks for all of your help, thanks for taking the time to read this, if there is anything I can do be sure to let me know. Have a good new year.

zack wrote:Hi Erock,

I'm sorry to hear about your recent frustrations. Matt must've seemed really interested, starting out, for you to have given him money up front. I say he still owes you something. Maybe $25 isn't enough to hack a game, as it only pays for a few hours in the business world, but maybe instead he could teach you how to get started in Assembly. Ask him to point you in the direction of his books and learning tools. Once the ball is rolling, you may be able to continue learning without him.

The headered ROM problem is this: Some copies of a ROM have two extra rows of bytes which contain labeling information. I believe a ROM stripped from an actual cartridge starts out with this information. But for reasons I don't understand, there are also many copies where people have deleted these first two rows. This means that all the locations in the ROM are shifted two rows. Frustrating, I know. For the record, Zelda3C still has its header.

When you tried to change those two bytes, the editor was in "insert mode"... I don't know which editor you're using, but there has to be an "overwrite mode" as well. I use Hex Workshop, personally, which defaults to overwriting. As for the heart container problem, I already knew the addresses you're working with. It would take me two seconds to write those two values. However, this change isn't enough -- we need an Assembly hacker to find additional areas in the game to change to complete the effect. It's on Jonathan's list of things to do when he gets back into the project. (His life is in a transition right now.)

In my own life, I've had a flooded basement, an electrical problem in the walls from another lightning strike, and a new baby girl born a week ago. So those are my current focus before I can get back into the project. I'm on vacation from work, so normally I'd be creating new areas, but I've been helping take care of our son and new daughter while my wife recovers from a C-section. I can't wait to get back into this awesome project when things calm down again.

Erock wrote:Hi Zack, how have you been doing? Congratulations on having a baby girl. Best wishes on fathering, now two children.



Ok, so, let’s talk Zelda3C. Sorry I haven’t kept in touch but I did finally get to have a tutoring session on basic hacking with Jonathan.

He told me what program to download and showed me how to freeze bytes in the hex editor in RAM while playing in-game to see what everything does. I actually learned quite a bit, hopefully with more lessons and practice I will be able to actually help you make this game.

However after talking with Jonathan for awhile, I realized that not everyone working on Zelda3C has the same mindset or goal for the project. He talked with me and told me how difficult hacking Zelda3 is. He talked about how it would be much eaisier to create a Zelda3 clone rather than to hack Zelda3 itself. Then he sent me the Zelda3 clone and I tested it out for myself. His program was made very well but, it wouldn’t be the exact same as a Zelda3 hack.

So, I kind of want to talk about this to you and Johnathan. What direction should Zelda3C take? Should we finish Zelda3C as a true Zelda3 hack or is it better to just port everything over to a clone and program it from scratch?

After listening to Johnathan for awhile, I kind of got the feeling that he’s not that interested in the hacking path and that he pretty much wants to go with the Zelda3 clone path.

When the tutoring sesson with him was over, I became emotionally overwhelmed. I want everyone on the team to have a similer goal in mind. I want to cooperate with each other and work together as a team to make this game great. It made me kind of sad to think that Johnathan had a different path for the game in mind. Here is just an idea that I’m throwing out there, what if we make both a Zelda3 hack and a Zelda3 clone as two separate projects to make Johnathan happy?

Thanks for reading this and listening, I just needed to talk with someone about this. I really care about the Quest for Calatia project and I do not have anything against Johnathan at all. He is actually a pretty nice guy and he actually called me, yes, he called me. (hint hint) CALL ME ZACK.

Eric’s cell phone number ------------

P.S. I think I still have tons of Zelda video ideas that I’ve sent you and if I could give me some long awaited feedback on those that would make my day.

Anyways, have a good one and remember, I’m sticking with this project till the END!

Erock wrote:

Hi Reshaper256 I hope this still is your working e-mail address. My name is Eric and I just want to talk with you about Zelda3C quest for Calatia.  



About a year or so ago I found out about the Parallel Worlds Zelda hack that was released a while back. I have actually never played the hack but I have watched videos of it on youtube. I was pretty impressed with Parallel Worlds and after watching a few videos I told myself. “Eric you have to do a Zelda3 hack on par with this one.” Of course the reason for this is because Zelda3 alttp was one of my favorite games growing up as a kid and playing it now still reminds me of my childhood. So after finding out about Parallel Worlds I set out to create my own Zelda3 hack but there was a problem, I know very little about hacking roms! Lol. I have actually read a little bit about rom hacking from the www.romhacking.net website but I’m just starting out and am still very inexperienced.



From searching the internet about how to hack Zelda 3 I actually came across your videos on youtube. You know the sprite hacking ones, which were very cool considering that you wrote the code yourself. After finding your videos I found the quest for Calatia website by GameMakr24. After checking out his upcoming Zelda3 hack I reconsidered doing my own hack and I have now decided to help him. I have already exchanged some pretty good e-mails with him regarding graphics, ideas and suggestions for Zelda3C. I also told him about the SNES game Gunman’s Proof which is a perfect game to get graphics from and if you haven’t seen that game then look it up now because the graphics in Gunman’s Proof are completely identical to the graphics used in Zelda3. It’s cool just to see how alike the two games are.



Now I don’t know if I’m officially part of the Zelda3C team yet but I’m definitely going to be making a contribution to this game and I will be working on it until it’s completed. I’m serious about working on this game since it has become a dream of mine to construct a Zelda3 hack. I think the whole hacking thing is just really awesome.



I wanted to tell you that those videos of the new bots you programmed are completely incredible. If the bulk of the monsters have new graphics and new code then this game is going to be beyond epic. Just having new enemies that look and behave different brings so much life to the game and makes the playing experience fresh and exciting.  



Since my hacking abilities are limited I’ve been using Hyrule Magic and my imagination to come up with interesting puzzle designs and concepts. In fact today I just e-mailed GameMakr24 four videos of some of my best stuff I’ve been cooking up in Hyrule Magic. I just hope he likes the concepts enough to put them in the actual game.



Anyways I just wanted to e-mail you to let you know that we will probably both be working on this game for awhile so if you ever want to drop me a line you can e-mail me anytime. Thanks for your time and thanks for all the work you have put into this project so far.


-Eric


oh yeah I also go by the name erockbrox

Erock and Reshaper256 wrote:Hey Eric, sorry about the lack of replies. I've been very busy searching for a new job, filling out applications, interviews, etc. I'll get straight to replying.

"So you might have to figure out how to hack the game to allow for all those extra graphics and if you want the game to actually look like those pictures you might also have to convince Gamemakr24 into taking the time to put all those extra graphics in Zelda3C. The only reason I’m saying this is because judging from his comment above I think he’s just willing to settle for less and not go the extra mile. But I could be wrong that’s just the vibe I’m getting from him."

I would have to look into what it would take, and whether it would even be possible at all. Zack is pretty focused on what he's up to right now, and probably doesn't want to put more work on me at the moment. As things stand, it's not possible to insert those graphics, but in a few months who knows.
"Yep, I exploit this a lot and it makes for very interesting puzzles and great one-way passages. (Not everyone knows that it is possible either.)"

I just want to be honest, I'm very impressed with how you seem to have mastered the dungeon editor so quickly. However, I would really like to work with you on making some dungeon puzzles that aren't so much "exploiting quirks in the game" as they are brand new puzzles with new room tags and new sprites that coordinate in ways not possible with stuff from the original game. Obviously you're very good at designing new puzzles, and have accomplished a lot working with the limitations of the original game, so I'd like to give you a little *more* to work with, if you understand me.

We should definitely chat about custom room tags and new sprites interacting together in dungeon rooms to create new puzzles.

Who knows what kind of crazy new puzzles we could design?

"1. This is the new indoors pot graphic I’ve submitted to Zack, he said he would use it if he doesn’t find a better one. I did not draw it but got it from another game. What do you think? I think it fits nicely."

It's pretty good, but may need some more shading. I'm sort of fond of the small pots from Zelda 3, but I could get used to these too.



"2. These are some treasure chest sprites I actually drew myself in MS paint. My idea behind it all was like this. In a typical dungeon you come across several small chests and usually one big chest. Well instead of using the same small chest graphic every time you uncover a small chest have different chest designs so that the player sees every chest as being unique. Like the compass map will come in a different style chest than the map chest. Each big chest would be slightly different depending on each dungeon. So the hookshot would come in a big chest that looks slightly different than the big chest that contains the hammer. What do you think? I talked to Zack about this idea and he said that it would be hard to program all the different chest graphics but I think that it would be worth it."

I think it may be worth it to change the chest graphic, but the work involved with getting various different chest graphics in different parts of the game sort of puts me off to that idea. Maybe in the future.



"3. Ok, here is one of my ideas that I think probably only you are able to pull off because it would require some good hacking skills but if you do it I will be very very happy! Ok you know the enemies in Zelda 3 that have the ball and chain weapon/mace that swings around in a circle. Well what if Link had that weapon! Yeah, what if Link had a mace that he could swing around over this head? I’ve been dreaming of this weapon for a long time now and I think if anyone can pull it off it is you. So if you think this is a great idea ( I hope you do) than go for it! At least let me know if it is possible."

It may or may not be possible. I've actually thought of this one myself a while back. I really like the idea. I could possibly combine a new sprite with freezing link in the frame of animation you've put him in. Only time will tell.



"4. Here is another video. This puzzle is pretty hard. Check it out.

5. Here is another video. This is the only overworld puzzle I’ve created. This one is pretty hard too."

Your designs are very professional. Again, I'd like to chat with you about creating brand new dungeon puzzles with new sprites and new room tags. Trust me, it'll open up a new realm of possibilities.

Sorry for keeping you waiting.

--

Jonathan

Reshaper256 wrote:Erik,

I'll certainly help you learn ASM.

I've been working on a side project that will interest you, which I've named "Labyrinth" and has mainly to do with custom-room-tags and events. Do you know any programming languages?  If you don't that's fine, I didn't know anything before jumping head-first into ASM.

I'll create a little "lesson" for you go through, teaching you the basics and giving you an idea of how ASM works in the context of Zelda 3. Also, I'll give you a bunch of documents that I've used that are infinitely helpful when trying to decode what the game is doing.

Let me take a few days to refresh myself, so the information I give you is complete and I can minimize confusion. I'll get back to you in a few days with some documents, examples, and some "problems to solve" so to speak.

I'm a teacher by the way, so you can expect some homework.

--
Jonathan

Reshaper256 wrote:Sorry for the delay Eric,

I'm very busy with work right now, but I still intend to do as I've previously stated.

I'll let you know when I get some more time.

Erock wrote:Thanks for e-mailing me! I totally appreciate your willingness to help educate me on the assembly programming. As for you being busy with work, that is no problem at all. Don’t even worry about it. Your job is more important and comes first. In fact, I’m very busy at the moment too. School started and it is going to be a challenging semester. The next time that I will be available to work with you, will most likely be on spring break. My spring break looks like it will be from March 13, 2010 to March 21, 2010. Assuming that your spring break will be the same as mine. We could put a hold on the project as for now and then we can talk about it some more as we get closer to that break. What do you think? Does this sound like a good idea?

Reshaper256 wrote:I have the next 3 days off so we can work on your ASM skillz.

Do you use a chat program or IRC?

Erock wrote:Some ideas you may have seen others you may have not. If you want to know more about one of the sketches let me know and I will give you the details. Also I made a post in the forums. I am requesting that you give me something to work on since I have nothing else to submit. Please give me something to work on.

erock wrote:How could I not wish you a happy Father’s day? You have fathered two children and I’m certain you are a great Dad. I’ll always be with the Calatia project and support it. Have a good one and take care.



- Eric

zack wrote:Hey, thanks! I would've replied sooner except I didn't have time to read several pages. Who knew this was a short message? (besides you!) To celebrate the special day, we drove up to Stone Mountain, a beautiful foresty park with a massive grey mountain in the center. You can bet that nature's beauty inspired me to work all the more on Calatia!

Zack wrote:Request for help with Zelda3C!

It's true, I thought of something for you to do! This actually occurred to me a few days ago, but I've been spending too much time at work to write.

What I need is a list of all the sprites in the game and how well they behave in environments that aren't theirs. You can get the list of sprites by double-clicking one in Hyrule Magic while editing Sprite tags. From there, you can change any sprite to any other sprite and behold its reactions!

Don't worry about describing graphics glitches -- most won't look right without the correct set loaded. I'm interested in knowing which overworld sprites can be used indoors, and which indoor sprites can function outdoors. What if, for example, I wanted to put bumpers outside? Or penguins? (I do have ice tiles ready to use outdoors.) And what if I want ravens, octoroks, even centaurs, indoors? I know some of them work everywhere, especially castle soldiers. (Did you know they can walk on water? It's true, unfortunately!) I also care about certain major sprites, like the King of the Zora, and whether they work in the world (LW or DW) they aren't originally from.

So, your project is to make a list of all these sprites, try them out in strange places, document where you tested and what happened. I highly recommend starting a spreadsheet (such as in Excel) instead of typing a document. Hopefully the game won't lock up when you undoubtedly try to place Ganon right outside Link's house! Have fun and let me know if you have questions!

erock wrote:Thanks for giving me something. I'll see what I can do.

erock wrote:Forgot to tell you, I don't have excel. I can do it in word. Have any suggestions?

zack wrote:How do you have Word but not Excel? They're both part of Office... You could try installing OpenOffice from OpenOffice.org, which is a free alternative to MS Office. It really needs to be in a spreadsheet so you can have rows of monsters and columns for LW results, DW, results, and Indoor results.

erock wrote:I bought my laptop used from a family friend. All of the programs where installed on it but I didn’t get the actual programs on CD. My computer originally had Excel installed on it. About a year ago I ran into a computer problem, we attempted to reformat my computer. It fixed the problem but I lost almost every thing else in the process. Not having the actual programs on CD’s means their gone for good. I’m using Word 2000 that someone else installed on my computer for me. I can still do it in Excel I’ll just have to do it on the computers at school. I can document all of my findings in a Word document and then transfer the data into an Excel file at school. (why can’t life just be easy?) I’m still going to do this! Don’t give up on me.





I do have some questions regarding this project.



Do you want me to test out EVERY sprite? Staring with:



???

?DustGirl?

?FloorMove?



and ending with:



Wizzrobe

Zelda

ZoraKing



I’ll do it, but I just want to make sure. How would I test out the sprite named “Person’sDoor”?



For testing the sprites out. I know you told me that it’s perfectly OK for graphics to be garbled/glitched, of course, but do you just want to make sure that the sprites work the way they normally do? Like make sure they do not freeze/crash the game, create an infinite loop, the sprite itself just freezes. Basically just test them out to see if they work exactly as they are originally supposed to work. Is this what you are asking for?



For testing out the sprites in locations, how many locations do you want to me test out and where should I test them out? For example the sprite named “Runner”, he works in the LightWorld (LW) but how do I know that he works everywhere in the LW? Do I need to test EVERY location in the LW with this sprite to ensure that he does indeed work in the LW or should I just test him out in 1 location and if he works I say “Yes, Runner works in the LW”. You get my drift here? Do I just test these sprites out in the LW, DW, Indoors? Or do I need to be more specific like LW village, LW forest, DW dungeon 3, LW dungeon 2, DW death mountain and so on.



Thanks for giving me this! I’m happy now.

You know that you can always call me on my cell phone and we could talk about this if it makes it any easier. You and I both know that you do own me a phone call. LOL!

zack wrote:So. First off, I should provide a list of the sprites and some better names for them. See attached. Don't be surprised by there being two of many numbers -- there are actually two sets of sprites you must toggle between in HM. The file is an Excel spreadsheet, but I think you can use OpenOffice to open it.

You don't have to test *every* sprite. Some of them are the same as their kindred -- a red soldier acts just like a green soldier. (In fact, soldiers don't need tested.) And things like "FloorMove" aren't likely to work outdoors, so they too can be skipped. Use your own judgment and start with the more interesting ones.

I can't tell what “Person’sDoor†says. Sometimes the text in your emails has extra symbols, lol... I think I've mentioned this before, but not sure.

The answer to #2 is yes, this is what I'm asking for. Functionality and no game-crashing.

Any location will do for testing. The village is no different from Death Mountain. All dungeon rooms are created equal as far as sprite functionality (I think) unless you get into bosses, which will always be in special boss rooms. The differences between LW and DW are only important for special sprites that exist once and have special homes, like our good friend King Zora.

I do owe you a phone call, but I'll wait until we have more to discuss. =) I'm definitely writing down your phone number so I won't have to look for it.

Enjoy the project!

erock wrote:I got started on this and so far it has been fun. I thought I would do a few and then send you the file so you can let me know if this is what you want from the assignment.

My biggest question comes from your last e-mail. You said there are different sprite lists you have to toggle back and forth in Hyrule Magic. I didn’t know that. Does it relate to the 3 time periods you can choose on the over world, the beginning, 1st part, 2nd part?

I guess I should just ask you, why are there two different sprites that have the same sprite number?

I included the screenshots of the actual testing locations used, this way you know where they were tested.

I added the additional information in case I need to write something about what it does or what happened.

The following is a list of what I mean when I write these in the cells in the spreadsheet.

Yes- the sprite worked just fine

Not Available- could not find the sprite in the list in HM

No Result – I tested it but saw nothing

Read Info- extra information that I wrote about

Please correct me if I’m doing anything differently then what you want me to do. I got a long list and I want to do the job correctly.

Thanks!

erock wrote:Hi, Zack. I sent you an Excel file of me starting the sprite assignment you gave me. I collected data on some of the sprites and sent it to you in a previous e-mail. Am I doing the job correctly? I’ll have to free time this weekend and I want to work on it some more. Thanks.

zack wrote:Hey, sorry for the delay.  With my mom's computer down, she's been using mine to do her college homework.  (Nearing end of quarter.)  I'm writing this from work, so have to keep it brief.  This weekend is both my wife's birthday and our anniversary (yes, we got married the next day) so if I have time to look at your file, it will be tonight.  Thanks for working on this!

erock wrote:No problem at all. I wanted to say a few words to you that I've wanted to say for a while.

Thank you for starting the Zelda3C hack.

Thank you for all of your hard work that you have put into the hack.

Thank you for looking at so many of my videos and e-mails

Ya know, you can always just call me if you can't get onto the computer.

erock wrote:Hey Zack, I know you have been busy with family events. Do you think you have time to squeeze in some feedback on the Excel file I started? I have this Sunday completely free and I’m eager to work on the list. Thanks a bunch.

erock wrote:I got this Saturday and Sunday free to work on the sprite sheet. I only got two weeks off before school starts. Sorry if I'm bugging you on this but I want to use this time while I have it. Thanks Zack.

zack wrote:Ah. Understood. I'll review your document and give you lots of guidance tonight after work. I'm making a reminder note so I don't find myself doing something else. Talk to you soon!

erock wrote:Thanks!

zack wrote:Good evening,

I was begged into watching a movie tonight, but I had to make sure I respond before I hit the hay. The file looks great! I'm not sure if you're using Excel, but the format is great when opened in Excel. I almost didn't see the pics off to the right, but luckily scrolled & found 'em. These look like very normal places to test. I like the table you're populating with information. I can say that some sprites aren't meant to be placed -- they're just the effects of other sprites. For example, the bad switch drops the snakes into the room if you pull it. I don't know what all the sprites do... What I have learned, I picked up just by browsing the original game and noting where sprites are placed.

On to your questions...

The two lists of sprites can be viewed in HM by going to File --> Preferences. You'll see where you can toggle between "Normal" and "Special'. If I remember right, you can rename the sprites here to your own liking. It's not tied to the story progress (rain/pendants/after Agahnim) -- sprites can be placed in any of these story phases.

The reason we have two lists is that there are more than 256 sprites in the game. The 2nd list is shorter, but the numbering repeats, causing some of the numbers to be repeated.

If you know how to count in hex, it might help to know that you can type the next sprite number right on the tag instead of looking for each sprite in the double-click list. That is, you cant type 00, and then 01, etc. After 09 is 0A, 0B, up to 0F, and then 10, etc.

Again, you're researching and documenting exactly the way I would be. It's all in a great, easy to use format. And I've already learned something, too! I can potentially have birds and vultures indoors! lol

Thanks again! (ooh, it's almost midnight; better hit send before tomorrow begins!)

erock wrote:Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate it.



You said I can access the second list by going to File --> Preferences. You'll see where you can toggle between "Normal" and "Special'.



Please forgive me but I still cannot seem to figure out how to get to that second list.



I clicked File --> Preferences -->Special -->OK--> right clicked on overworld map -->insert sprite



But I always get the same old list I’ve always gotten. The list starts with



???

?Dustgirl?

?floormove?



Then if I go back into the Preferences it is resets back to the Normal setting instead of Special, which I choose earlier.



Am I missing something here?



If I do File --> Preferences -->Special -->OK-->File-->Preferences



It just resets back to Normal and not Special. I don’t get it.



Oh and by the way. You said in some of my e-mails you see garbled characters, which makes reading some of my words in my e-mails difficult. All those are, are quotation marks. Somehow when I e-mail you a word in quotes the characters become scrambled so thanks for telling me so I won’t do that anymore.

erock wrote:I apologize about this but I just cannot seem to be able to find that second sprite list you were talking about in HM. Could you help me out, thanks.

zack wrote:Hey, sorry -- I think that all the sprites are available as you edit the sprite tags. The 2nd list is only for renaming the sprites for use in HM labeling. If there are some that are NOT possible to place in the game without changing some setting, then I actually don't have that answer yet. Either way, you can definitely test the majority of the sprites without worrying about the few beyond 256. Thanks again!

erockbrox wrote:Thanks for the reply. I’m really trying at this!



As of right now I’m working on that sprite sheet.







Here is a situation I just came across 2 seconds ago.



On your sprite list that you gave me one of the 8’s is labeled Transformer.



So I go into Hyrule Magic and right click on the overworlds and on the interior to find the sprite labeled Transformer.



There is NO sprite in the list labeled Transformer but there is a sprite named Transform/Smoke.



Ironicly enough if I go to File then Properties and type in 8 under Special sure enough I get the sprite labeled Transformer! But I have no idea how to put that sprite into a room or into an overworld.



Do you kind of see where I’m at with this?

erock wrote:Ok, I know how to fix the whole thing.



What I need is for you to open up Hyrule Magic and for you to test out the number 8 sprite under the Special category named Transformer.



If you can test out the sprite named Transformer then tell me how you did it, I’ll understand exactly what to do. I want to know how to test that sprite out because it is not on any list when I right click to insert a sprite.



Just whenever you get the time, thanks.

erock wrote:Ok, I put a lot of hours into this. Let me know if you want to me change anything. There were some tests where I had a No Result but that doesn’t mean that the sprite doesn’t work. It just means that I may have not have known how to test it properly. I’ll probably send you another e-mail talking more about this file right now class will start soon so I got to go. By the way after doing this, I expect a phone call J

zack wrote:Awesome, thanks! I can't wait to start looking at it! Thought I'd write you a quick reply so you would know you're on radar. Talk to you soon!

zack wrote:Hey, Mr. Erock!  Hope you're having a great Labor Day Weekend!

I'm reading your sprite spreadsheet.  It looks like it's going to be very useful throughout the design process!  Thanks again!  I'm going to comment here as I think of things to say.  =)  I won't comment on everything, as that would take ages, lol...

It's cool that ravens and vultures both work indoors.  I have plans for "indoor areas that look like they're outdoors" so they'll fit in well, there.

MovingFloor only works when a certain type of floor is used in a room.

I'm glad octoroks work indoors.  =)

Transformer (you emailed about this, but I only just read it today) only works when placed under pots as an item, I believe.  When Link lifts the bottle, he's threatened with temporary bunnyhood...

The wallmaster result is funny, lol!  If it can't find the ceiling, it just ascends into outer space!!!

The Mouldrum boss works outdoors?!  What!!  ....Awesome!!!

Chicken:  I bet you didn't even have to test this one to know.

Hmm... Octoblimp in a confined room.... interesting.

Hahah, maybe I'll have a Helpful Hinox (cyclops) in pegswitch rooms.

No, I won't overuse flying tiles.  I promise.

I never thought about putting bubbles (skull) outdoors, before.  Maybe I'll have a few near a toxic fairy pond that you can "rescue" and obtain.

3BlindMice are generated by bombed doors, especially in Turtle Rock, that run south and can hurt you.

I'm glad the dwarf/frog works indoors.  He's programmed to never follow you indoors, but that doesn't mean he can't start out there...

Wow, even the talking trees activate peg switches!  I wonder if I could put that "face" on a column, indoors.  (I don't want rainbow glitches outdoors, after all.)

The "thief" is actually the old man?  Okay.  (I didn't name these -- Sephiroth3 did.)

Thanks for making extra notes like "other sprites lighten up as flute boy disappears."  This explains why the animals run away!  

...I haven't commented in a while, as much of this data I know.  But I have to say, wall bubbles, rollers and beamos would make great outdoor decorations!

I'm very glad the sand crabs that live in the ground are usable outdoors.

Hmm...  I remember getting Zelda to follow me while outdoors.  Her functionality is tied to whether you've visited your uncle.

Hahah, indoor bee hives!  I love it!

The Arrghus boss would rather explore than stay and fight!

DarkTurtles are evil, near doorways.  Just sayin'.

But, BlueAirBomber just wants to be your friend!

The smoke-half of the transformer is what comes out of the chimney in the LW dwarf house.

The Mantle is that which Zelda helps you push in the throne room.

Falling Rocks - if you were using save-states, maybe the game remembered it even after you deleted it.  It says, "Hey, no fair cheating, I'm gonna keep throwing rocks at you!"  Yes, the game *knows*...

Alright, I'm going to use my remaining time to get some overworld work done.  Thanks again for this great reference source!  Sorry for not giving you a phone call yet, but I'm sleepy and not much of a phone person.....

erock wrote:Thanks so much for your response! That assignment took me like an entire week to do, working on it almost everyday.



There were a ton of extra notes that I wanted to write down but it gets complicated and detailed. A phone call with you would be good because I can explain all the extra stuff that is hard to necessarily say or write down in a few short sentences.



Like for example: The fish that gives you Quake. It will work in the outdoors but also I tested it inside the Hookshot dungeon. I put the fish in shallow water and in the type of water that the big fairy comes out of. It turns out it works in both types of water! Also that water that the big fairy comes out of and gives you silver arrows, well you can swim in that water too. But when you swim you get stuck and can’t go anywhere but the swim animation is still there. So you could actually have a room that looks like the same room that you get the silver arrows in but instead of having a big fairy that comes out of the water you will get the fish that gives you Quake! I actually think that, that’s a cool idea!


But you see its is very hard to explain all this on paper for many sprites. That’s why a phone call, I think would be great. I could explain to you many things that are important but are hard for me to write down.



Some sprites I may have written down as no result but its probably just because I didn’t know how to test them properly. When certain things need multiple sprites for them to work, my knowledge sometimes falls short. So you may have to fill in some of my gaps. Like for instance the Zelda sprite. I know she works but I don’t know HOW to get her to work. Also like the wallmaster, in parallel worlds they got it to work perfectly. I don’t know how to get it to work but I know it is possible for it TO work. Just because I got a weird result doesn’t mean that it is impossible to have that sprite, it just means I couldn’t figure it out.



Anyways I want to close with this.



Thank you so much for starting this hack. I know that you have put tons of work into it and I’m actually very impressed how much you have done and how determined you are. Never give up and just remember you are not alone in this project, I’m right there with you.



Sorry for not giving you a phone call yet, but I'm sleepy and not much of a phone person.....



That’s a bunch of BS, give me my phone call.

erock wrote:Do you own an actual NES cartridge with Outlands on it that you can play on the real NES hardware?



If you don’t own such a cartridge, would you like one for a possible Christmas gift from me?

zack wrote:LOL! No, I still don't own such a cartridge, and of course I'd love one... But what would I get you? That would be an expensive gift!